Justin,
A compliment to you on your questioning by Gianni.
The name of the documentary is this " Nel Nome dei Templari" rete 4 (channel 4 aired March 4 2007)

In fact we need to write to malcolm. You will see in the documetary, (even if you cannot translate the Italian) the frescoes of templars and their outfits---they had specific white dots in threes all over their clothes--it would make sense that the time period would have reflected the moda of the Templars.

To continue from answering all of your past questions..................

---According to a document found by Nicolson, a Benedictine Monk of San Bertino in France--
In 1135, the Templars were Crusaders and after the first Crusade decided to remain in the Holy land. They were noble Normans from the Reign of Jerusalem. This document confirms that the Templars existed before 1118, this is the date the official story recognizes as year of the Order's birth.

Proof found in Lucania confirming the birth of the Order of the Templar Knights:

--In the town of Forenza on the estate of the Pagano counts, the ritual of the Knighthood for the Grand Master of the Order of the Templars is still celebrated today.
---In Castelmezzano a town near Acerenza, a church found was called the "Madonna of Stella del Mattino---"Madonna of the Morning Star." There's a door with the Order's Symbol carved into it.
--In that same church, there is an icon of the Madonna with a phrase inscripted in rock inside of a frame stating; " "Hic Habitabo Quoniam elegia ea, Stella Mattutina AID 1117."
This phrase was taken from Psalms:131 and in the Psalter of Saint Albans; it's the phrase that a Grand Master Templar must recite when receiving his Knighthood. The date is very important: AID 1117 "The Year Incarnationis Domini 1117" introduced from the Templar estate archives. The date of 1117, is what proves the Templars already existed.
All these were found in the area of Acerenza--where the greatest concentration of churches (excavated from rock) and frescoes were created with scenes from the Apocrophy gospel. Many frescoes rappresent images of the Holy Grail--cups that are collecting the blood of Jesus.

This was the rest of the response to your first question,
j

Professor Barber replied to an email of mine over the weekend, I really suggest you contact him - it's hard to get your work taken seriously if you don't at least talk to the experts.

He does not believe that Hugh de Payen was Italian and he states that there is evidence for his existence in France. Here is a bit of what he said:

"I don't know of any evidence which would place him in Italy, although one seventeenth-centruy writer tried to give him a Neapolitan origin. I wrote about this in an article called 'Origins of the Order of the Temple' (reprinted in My Crusaders and Heretics, 1995), but see also M-L Bulst-Thiele, Sacrae Domus Militiae Templi Hierosolymitani Magistri (1974) (short biographies of the Templar masters)."

I am also awaiting a reply from Professor Ted Evergates, the leading authority on Champagne nobility.

I will definetly let you know what he says either on the forum on in a private message.

This 17th century writer wouldnt have been named Ottomano Glinni?

Thanks for writing these people...
He needs to see the documentary...Hugo's name is written on this stone--which was a list of the Templar Order's members, and it was written "Hugo di Pagano" not Huge de Payen

Like any good theory, this one has to be put to the test - so I'm doing my best

A note on Templar uniforms:
The white tabards that the Templars became famous for came only after their Rule was made official in 1129. The pure unbleached linen that the fighting knights (and only the fighting knights) wore is indicative of the fact that the Rule of the Poor Knights of Christ and the Temple of Solomon was written based on the Cistercian rule. The Cistercians were the only monsatic order in Western Europe that wore a habit of undyed cloth to symbolise the return to "apolstolic poverty" that the Order was trying to instill -in response to the growing extravagence of the Benedictine Order.

The Templars Rule was written by Saint Bernard of Clairveax - A French Cistercian so I don't see how or why they would be wearing that outfit before their rule was written. Unless of course they were already plans for creating an Order (not unheard of after 1099), which would make sense if Hugh and Saint Bernard knew each other before hand, which makes even more sense if they were both from the same part of France (Bernard from burgandy, Hugh from champagne). Several of their letters to each other still exist.

As far as the crosses, I guess I would have to see more images but you already know that pilgrims carved crosses in every chruch along the way to Jerusalem - and southern Italy was the pilgrim route to the Holy Land. Every pilgrim, whether planning to fight in the Holy Land or not, was said to be "taking the cross" and had one sewn on his clothes. The cross on the Castelmezzano church looks just like the crosses pilgrims have carved all over the Church of the Holy Sepulchure - I don't see how that has to be taken as a Templar cross. Also the image that is possibly dated to 1117 seems like a red herring considering that Psalm 131 is part of several monastic vows of obedience - including the Franciscans and there is no other evidence on the image for a Templar origin. I'm still looking into the town's coat of arms and the fact that Frederick II may have rebuilt their church - why would he keep obvious Templar symbols in his lands? More to the point - why would the Angevin kings of Naples allow for Templarism to remain after 1307?

When it comes to proof in Acerenza, I would like to know just how long the Pagano counts have been doing this - alot of "Templarism" came back into vogue after Freemasonry became widespread. I also would like to know they were able to continue this "investiture" celebration after the Order was suppressed without being excommunicated. I have a feeling that their celebration has more to do with the Freemason creation myth than actual Templar history.

Another thing that cannot escape my mind is the Rennes-le-Chateau phenomenon: These towns are in the poorest section of Italy - what better way to draw tourist dollars than to be connected to the "DaVinci Code" mysteries of Templars and Sacred Geometry. Since Holy Blood, Holy Grail came out the tiny French village of Rennes-le-Chateau has seen hundreds of thousands of tourists each year.

Is the stone complete? That is does is begin with Hugh de Payen and end with Jacques de Molay? If so, the when was the stone carved? If not, then who is the last name on the list?

I don't think Professor Barber would be swayed by a documentary considering he is usually asked to participate in them. But he would probably look at any original documents that you are using for evidence.

So what are your final plans? Are you two going to publish a book?

Justin, hi

If you speak with the professor again, you may want to emphasize that Hugo was Italo--Norman instead of saying he was specifically Italian. He's was like us in that he was Italian like we are American, with Norman origins like we have Italian origins/// Gianni has several documents, and I can sent them directly to Professor Barber if he would like. A book is in the plan

Hi Jacqueline

I'm probably not going to speak to Professer Barber for a while, unless I go and read the books he suggested to me. I'm really not that active in this kind of research anymore.

However I did get a reply from Champagne Nobility expert Theodore Evergates. Here is a little bit of what he wrote:

"The earliest reference to a village at Payns (just north of Troyes in
Champagne) is from 820 (Pedennagium), cited in Alphonse Roserot,
"Dictionnaire historique de la Champagne meridionale," 3:1094. I am not
aware of another mention until the twelfth century."

"There are two local references to Hugh of Payns before 1125: in 1100 he
was present with a number of other barons of the count of Troyes and
listed as "Hugo de Paeanz" ("Cartulaire de l'abbaye de Montieramey," ed.
Charles Lalore, 24), and in 1113 he was listed as "dominus de Peanz" [lord
of Payns] (Archives Departementales de l'Aube [at Troyes], 6 H 38). For
those of us working in the history of this region, those references (and their
contexts with other local lords) are quite strong markers of local
origin. Hugh was probably from a middling knight or lesser baronial
family, perhaps related to Bernard of Clairvaux. It is not unusual that
Hugh is cited only twice: he was probably in the east most of the time,
and he probably had limited means and thus was not a benefactor of
monasteries (and so does not appear in their records)."

"It is true that there is a mention of a "Hugo de Paganus," but I take
that to be a scribe's transcription of an unfamiliar name. Payns was a
very small settlement (perhaps not even a village) on the Seine River and
probably not familiar to most monastic scribes who were writing these
documents in Latin (from hearing the name in spoken French)."

Regarless of these findings, the Professor did mention that he is interested in hearing about what you discover in your research. He also suggested contacting Simonetta Cerrini, a researcher on the early Templars.

A book huh, I hope I can get my copy signed

Forum Answers

The inevitable historical documentation that refers to Hugo de Paganis is as follows;

1) The original version of “Historia rerum in partibus transmarinis gestarum” by William of Tyre, Book 12 chapter 7; “ Inter quos primi et precipui fuerunt, viri venerabilis, Hugo de Paganis….”

2) Original and signed documents from the Grand Maestro “Hugo de Pagano” (Albon, Cartulair général)

3) A record from May, 2, 1125 (Rorich, “Regesta”) is where Hugo de Pagano signs his signature together with Arnaldus, the Order of Our Lady of Sion.

In no document had the grand maestro Hugo de Pagano signed as Hues de Paenz.
“Orthodox” version (recalled from official historians) of Professor M. Barber and of M-L Blust-Thiele:

1.From the version translated in the “langue d’ Oil” into Latin from the story of William of Tyre: “Hues de Paiens delez de Troie”, one can truly hypothesize the source “delez Troie” and one can guess that the Troie is Troye in Champagne, estate of count Hugo de Champagne.

2.We can also guess that Hugo de Paganis translated into Hues de Paiens, was a man who came from a very small place called Pedennagium 13 km from Troye on the Seine River.

3.The hypotheisis is that the count of Pedennagium, being Hugo de Paeanz appears in two documents:
one from 1100, in a record written in Troye with the count of Bar and the count of Ramerup,
the other from 1113, where he signed as Hugo “dominus de Peanz” along with the count of Champagne. 'This Hugo' was from Montigny bearing possessions located in the area of Tonnerre. He had a wife related to the Montbards and a son by the name of Abbott Teobaldo of Sainte-Colombe of Troye.

4.Another hypothesis (Esquieu:” Les templiers de Cahors”) says that Hugues de Payen was born in the castle of Mahun, adjacent to Annonay in the low valley of Rodano (Ardèche); a record of his birth-- on February 9th, 1070.

How do we prove that we are dealing with the right man?
The story is told that he was seen leaving with Hugo di Champagne for the Holy Land in 1104, then again in 1113, but never returned after that.
More proof; that the Order of the Templars is once again aknowleged in Troye 1129.
The Templars received laws from Saint Bernard, son of a Montbard. Among the first Templars, we can figure that one of them was the uncle of Saint Bernard.

The Orthodox version should be also considered true therefore, which states of the Templar’s origins and Hugo de Pagano:

1st Hypothesis: Hugo de Paganis of William of Tyre is “Hues de Paiens delez Troie” from the Frank translation, or rather Hugo come from a place called Troie.
2nd Hypothesis: Troie is the Troye in Champagne
3rd Hypothesis: Hugo de Paganis is Hues de Payen in French, Hues de Paenz and man of Peanz
4th Hypothesis: Paenz is Pedennagium 13 km from Troye
5th Hypothesis: Hues de Paenz changed his signature when he became the Grand Master of the Templars, signing as Hugo de Pagano

We must consider, like every great theory, that by reducing the various levels of hypothesis,it may be possible to find material proofs more convincing.

No proof has ever been found until now which confirms this theory. The story connecting Hugo of Champagne to Saint Bernard does not possess proof, only a new hypothesis.

The “Apocryphal” on the Norman Knight Hugone de Pagano from Lucania (not recognized by the official story) is in a story written in 1610 by Filiberto Campanile about a noble family of Naples:”L’Armi ovvero insegne de’ nobili” it happens that Hugo de Pagano is the son of Pagano de Pagano and Emma. The family’s origins are from Brittany, who arrive in Lucania in 1014 with the Normans.

1. He conquests the city of Nocera, Pagano, and Forenza settling in the city of Troia,in Lucania. The document in which Filiberto Campanile refers to, is a one appertaining to Queen Giovanna I D’Angiò, queen of Naples in 1340.
The D’Angiò’s were from the same family of Folco V D’Angiò, King of Jerusalem and affiliated with the Order of the Templar Knights in 1120.
In a similar document, Pagano de Pagani and his wife Emma, made ample donations to the Benedictine Monastery in Venosa, (to the Norman Abbott Berengario) in 1086. The donation has been verified by Menager “Le fondations Monastiques” with documents still existing today (Library of Leo, B5, Fol. 100: “.Ego Paganus, pro salute meae (…) et uxoris meae Emmae…).
Pagano de Pagano, was a Knight of Ruggero Borsa and appears in various documents of donation. His name is the same in signatures made by the first Grand Master of the Templars. He came from the Troia in Lucania.

2.In a letter Hugo de Pagano sent to his uncle Amarelli in Calabria, he spoke of a mission for defence of the pilgrims and death of his cousin Alessandro. The letter is dated 1103. There is a registered copy in the public notary in Naples translated from Latin to Italian dated back to; 1630. Unfortunately, the copy written in Latin has since been lost.
The Lucanian story of Hugo de Pagano is this; Hugo was the son of Pagano de Pagano and Emma, a noble Norman family of Southern Italy, who take off for the crusade with Boemondo D’Altavilla and Tancredi. He had written this letter to his uncle in 1103 speaking of the defending of the pilgrimages. He returned to Italy in 1116, and left once again with Goffredo of Santo Ademaro in 1117. Goffredo of Santo Ademaro had probably arrived in Southern Italy with Eustachio of Boulogne in 1117, who would become king of Jerusalem (Ruciman,”Story of the Crusade”).
In Jerusalem, they became known as a New Order frpm Baldovino II, that there; they welcomed him for these motives:

1.Hugo de Pagano was a relative of the Altavilla, and nephew to Ruggero I and cousin of Ruggero II. After the harsh encounter made from Baldovino I; who had disowned Adelaide mother of Ruggero II, after having taken all of the money, and had wanted to regain support from the powerful King of Sicily; Ruggero II. He transmits it to Hugo de Pagano. His mother Emma was the sister of Giuditta Evreux.

2.Hugo was supported by the Order of our Lady of Sion, orders were principally formed by Benedictine Norman monks who came from southern Italy. This was founded by Goffredo of Buglione (their leader was a bishop who came from Calabria) (Ruciman, “Story of the Crusade”)

3.Goffredo of Santo Ademaro was a liegeman from Eustachio of Boulogne, brother of Goffredo of Buglione and Baldovino I; the legit king of Jerusalem who had given up his throne.

Before the Templars, we can consider that an order called “the Knights of San Giovanni” had existed, founded by the people from Amalfi—in this way, pilgrims could be protected in the Holy Land. It is very probable that Hugo de Pagano was affiliated with this order (Amalfi was a seafaring Republic near Salerno that was conquested by the Normans of Southern Italy).

The preoccupation of Count Hugo of Champagne (from the Crusade), had occurred in “Norman Italy” where they arrived to embark. This explains why Hugo of Champagne knew the “Militia Christi” founded by Roberto Guiscard at the time of Niccolò II and of the assembly of Melfi.
The great presence of French in the Order of the Templars, mustn’t bewilder anyone. Boemondo, prince of Taranto, returned to Italy in 1105, and looked to support the King of France and England, helped by Adele de Blois, wife of Stefano of Blois, the brother of Hugo of Champagne.

Adele organized the marriage of Boemondo and Costanza, the daughter of the King of France and the ex-wife of Hugo of Champagne. Hugo of Champagne found himself in Puglia in the period of 1105, and it’s quite probable that his path had crossed at some point with Boemondo’s.
Hugo de Pagano makes this same journey, after returning to Italy in 1127, first meeting the Pope, and then going to France. This journey is repetitious to the journey made by Boemondo d’Altavilla in 1106.

Ultimately, in the “Apocryphal” version, there are documents without hypothesis. These documents have been kept false by historians, but it wouldn’t be so difficult to prove them actually true.

The proofs; are in the places found shadowing this story (Many places had been completely forgotten: frescoed chapels were only recently found, others were used as stalls for pigs!) and in new documents that had not been studied by historians; due to the unfortunate fact that they’ve been unknown to them.
In the rewritten story (from a point of view by the Normans of southern Italy), the origins of the Crusade are explained (see William of Malmesbury and Ruciman) besides the origins of the Knights Templar.
The Normans of Lucania and Acerenza become the center of this story, considering two things:

1.In Lucania a meeting between the Papacy and the Normans occurs

2.In Lucania there is a conflict between the Normans, the Papacy, the Longobardi, the Saracens and the Greeks. In Lucania, there was a great presence of Hebrews, and above all, in Venosa, near to Acerenza.

If there was an actual place in time where the Crusade could have been organized, it was in this place, the Lucania of Roberto Guiscard and Boemondo of Taranto. The proofs are numerous, and will be documented in a publication that we are preparing.