http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...rlusconi-italy

I do not know mush about current italian politics and I feel I must learn if I am going to live there.

Lets start with Berlusconi and wanting an American presidential system . HOw do you feel? Do you think it would work? What do you think about Berlusconi?

That was an insteresting article to read. Thanks for sharing it!

I'm an American living in Holland and I'm hoping I can move to Italy in the future, so I'm not so sure my opinion counts. I just hope Berlusconi is out of office by the time I'm able to move to Italy.

Melborunegirl, Would like to know what you think of Berlusconi
now after all the negative things that were said about him in
your other thread. Did you like the guy to begin with and do you
like him now? Don't remember if you ever did give your opinion
on Mussolini I mean Berlusconi. Acquiring minds want to know.
You want to know what we all think about him but what do you
think about him? Non bisogna mai aver paura di parlare.

Villa,

You may have made a Fruedian slip when you said "Acquiring minds want to know." Typically that would be "Inquiring" (or for those Brits "Enquiring") minds... In Silvio's case "Acquiring" seems perfect...

Steve

In answer to the political system question. I think at the end of the war Italians were afraid to instill a system that might produce another dictator. First thing they did was vote on a referendum to let citizens choose between the monarchy and a republic. By a small margin, the republicans won and the king and his family left Italy for exile in Portugal.
Next, they wrote a new constitution. They opted for a parliamentary democracy over a presidential one because they felt a president would hold too much power, and they desperately wanted to avoid that.
Because there never was a solid majority by one party or another, all governments had to form coalitions in order to govern. The prime minister's powers were always limited because he needed to please his many ruling partners. Laws that one side would promote would be diluted by the time they passed to take into account various interests. There were literally dozens of parties, each with its own programs or projects they wanted to enact. This led to partners dropping out of ruling coalitions if they disagreed with some law that was being propsed.
This system wasn't very effective and so we witnessed the sordid spectacle of governments falling every few months or so.

To alleviate this problem and make for a more stable government, they divided themselves into two huge groupings: Center-right and center-left. We've seen governments lasting a lot longer since they went that way. The first Berlusconi government lasted its full five year term, however the Prodi regime fell after two years because a communist faction objected to something or other. That's the weakness of the left; they can't stay united.
I think the article is unfairly promoting fear. Berlusconi is the head of a bloc that won the elections fair and square. The fact that they're solidifying their power is just good politics.
The opposition should do the same, rather than fight among themselves over small stuff. It's not like the right took power by force. They were elected by a majority of Italians. Next time hopefully the other side will do a better job and win.
But to talk about dictatorships is just sour grapes and a refusal to face reality by the opposition....

augustus, Io personalmente adoro la politica italiana! Sessanta governi dalla seconda guerra mondiale!
Cardinali e gangster che si contendono il potere politico! E stelle del porno in parlamento!
Fantastico! Operai e intellettuali negli stessi partiti! Proprio come ai miei tempi!

Il sistema politico italiano e il piu democratico del mondo.
Tutti prima o poi fanno il presidente, per quindici minuti.

Personally I love Italian politics! 60 governments since World War II. Cardinals and gangsters vying
for politcal power! Porno queens in parliament! Great! Workers and intellectuals in the
same party! Just like the old days in my country!

The Italian political system is the world's fairest. Sooner or later everyone gets to be president for 15 minutes.

Augustus,

Thank you for the excellent historical perspective. The evolution of political structure and concentration of power in Italy appears to me to have resulted in an unbalanced democratic system - or perhaps balance didn't exist from the beginnings after WWII. Today Italy has a weak, slow and ineffective judiciary which has provided the Prime Minister with an excuse to shield executive officers from judicial scrutiny. Further, the Prime Minister has attempted to extend that shield to protect against "unfair" revelations by the news media - a position reckless members of the press brought upon themselves.

As you so effectively point out, the legistative branch is tremendously fragmented and, in a parliamentary system, that fragmentation results in wild political swings and a body of law that reflects the passion of the moment instead of a long term progression of law.

It seems to me that those factors would argue for moving away from a parliamentary system. That kind of shift would be very complex to undertake en masse. To simplify the legislative fragmentation political parties would have to meet a minimum representation (a percentage of the voters, for example). That might concentrate political parties. The law enforcement system, based I think on the French system, would have to be modified to seperate the investigative functions from the judiciary.

Still, the most difficult would be the implementation of fixed terms for legislators and the Prime Minister's office and some of the judiciary. While that would allow politicians the time to undertake necessary but unpopular actions it requires a gigantic leap of faith from Italians - who already seem to have little faith in those who hold public office.

Now that I think of it, the latter situation is not entirely successful here in the US. ;-)

Thanks Augustus

That is excatly the sort of thing I was hoping for.

Where do you think people are politically, more left or right? Do people vote Berlusconi just because the left cannot get it together not because they like him?

To a certain degree do you think people ignore politics and keep at what they are doing. Italy is still one fo the biggest economies and although a good sized population, not the biggest so it the economy because of or depsite the politics?

I must admit to loving the fact that Italy kept changing it's governments, I actually think it is healthier then what political parties do now, frighten the public into staying with the status quo.

I loved the idea of the people kicking out the government.

Italians are pretty much in the middle politically and each election is very close. That is why it's so difficult to form a working coalition. So, the country is divided between those that like Berlusconi and those who hate him.
From the Italians that I know personally, politics is not that big of a deal. They are fatalistic about it and believe that each side is faulty so they don't get particularly outraged when some scandal breaks. They just see it as the cost of doing business. I think that among the electorate those that are ideologically driven, from both the left or right, are few. Most people vote their own self-interests, as they do in other parts of the world. What can the candidate do for me and my family?
Like get a better job, or better deal. I do believe that one of the reasons the right has risen somewhat lately is because they have a tougher stance on illegal immigration. This appeals to northern merchants who attribute a rise in break-ins and burglaries, prostitution, and overall crime, to the increased foreign presence.

I first heard of Berlusconi in the mid '80s when he purchased my favorite soccer club, AC Milan. He owned canal 5 TV station as well as Mediaset. With the advent of cable TV in Italy Berlusconi fortunes soared. Still, he didn't get into politics until relatively late in life, early '90s. The fact that he rose so rapidly surprised many, including me. Berlusconi was the first Italian politicians to run an American style campaign, with short commercial ads that inundated the air waves 24/7.
I think that's what set him apart from other politicos, his media savvy.
As much as he might see himself as the new "duce" I doubt very much that a dictatorship is possible in Italy, or even that he wants it. The armed forces are pretty independent, as is the judiciary. Not to mention the trade unions that have the ability to stop the whole country, if they wish. BTW, the president of Italy, Napolitano, is a leftist, former communist deputy. So there are check and balances in place to avert such a remote possibility from ever occurring.

I agree with Villa's comments about Italian politics, about it being unique and peculiar. Not only did we have a porn star in parliament, (Cicciolina), but she continued her career while in office. Sales of her flicks went to the roof.
Now we have the minister of equalities, Mara Carfagna, who is a former topless dancer and model. Rumor has it that in order to get the job Ms Carfagna had to perform certain sexual acts on the prime minister. Italians don't get angry over such things. They just shake their heads and laugh.

Former topless model joins Berlusconi's cabinet as Italy's equalities minister

[QUOTE=augustus;23349]
"I agree with Villa's comments about Italian politics, about it being unique and peculiar. Not only did we have a porn star in parliament,
(Cicciolina), but she continued her career while in office. Sales of her flicks went to the roof.
Now we have the minister of equalities, Mara Carfagna, who is a former topless dancer and model. Rumor has it
that in order to get the job Ms Carfagna had to perform certain sexual acts on the prime minister. Italians
don't get angry over such things. They just shake their heads and laugh."

Not to change completly the subject but people who have not lived in Italy might get the wrong idea about Italian society from all
this porn star in parliament and other things you hear about Italy. At any rate years ago I lived in Vicenza, Italy(population 100,000+)
for 2 years. Had several Italian girlfriends. It's strange how prudish Italian women could be with that idea you had to be properly introduced
etc. etc. This was the norm on one hand. Basically in general you could not just go out on the street and meet women which is what most people
in the U.S. might think from all they hear about Italy. In Vicenza for example the Bishop did not allow dancing in town. Playboy magazine
was strickly prohibited. If you tried to talk to women on the street they would not talk to you tanto facile. A woman's reputation was
importantissimo. Americans who haven't lived in Italy or other Latin countries just don't get it. You have to have lived in Italy to understand.

The point I'm trying to make is that Italian society is not some kind of open free love society that people in the U.S. might
think it is. It's ironic that most or many Italians that I met in Italy think that the U.S. is some kind of open free
love type society or at least much much more than they think Italy is.