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  #31  
Old 11-07-2009, 09:33 PM
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Default Re: Crucifix

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Originally Posted by Giacomo View Post
No Zidanie, your English is good! So what you're saying is that young Italians are rebellious? The younger generation wants to see certain changes in Italy...maybe less traditional?
Well Giacomo, most people of the younger generation don't even know how to lace their shoes, kids are more and more stupid I think, I was talking about the generation that now is 20-25yo. We grew up in the 90's, and its culture has left its signs.
We're not precisely rebellious, we just feel that too many things are wrong in the very structure of Italy, and church-state connections is just one of those things. Ever felt like everyone tries to keep you ignorant in order to exploit you? Here it sometimes is exactly like this, the core of our democracy is corrupted and there is no utopic "government of the people".

The Catholic Church is rich, and it has many interests in befriending high-profile politicians. The result is treatises stating that Italy as a Country favors Catholicism in many ways, not last a crucifix in places like schools, but think about ICI:
- you're poor and live in a pigstylike 50m2 house -> you pay a lot of taxes for having a roof on your head
- you've been bathing in gold (not always "christianly" obtained) for centuries -> you don't pay anything for the beautiful buildings where you officiate ceremonies

The steps:
1) Optionally base yourself on centuries of bloody history (optional as we can see Scientology didn't)
2) Build connections with the governors and important people (and I don't believe they're very religious, with all the s**t they do)
3) Surround people with religious symbols (we could also call it advertisement), exploit their imposed faith
4) You'll have more people to church, more people donating money, another stack of gold somewhere in the Vatican.
5) Re-invest that money in the fortification of the process
No more no less what multinationals do. Church today is not much different from Exxon or Microsoft.

You all talk about tradition, but when a tradition is a way to hide economic interests I don't think it should be protected. Also, as a tradition it seems pretty recent

On a sidenote, thanks Giacomo, but I have much to improve, I tend to write sentences which are confused and too long. Stupid Italian with its four-subordinates sentences still affects me in writing
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Last edited by Zidanie5; 11-07-2009 at 09:38 PM.
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  #32  
Old 11-08-2009, 07:20 PM
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Default Re: Crucifix

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Originally Posted by Villa View Post
There is no way that every religion can be given equal time nor should public funding be spent on separate rooms for that purpose. This is why the family of origin is the best place to explain to children the bigger questions of life, such as, the nature of God, man's place in the universe, and how we treat others, and what is considered to be the writings, rituals and duties of their chosen religion.
Villa,

What about students who come from families where parents don't even bother to find out where they are or what they are doing let alone talk to their kids about morality? For students such as these, school may be the only place where they can learn about morality. I have had some kids ask me some pretty tough questions about the difference between right and wrong.
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  #33  
Old 11-08-2009, 07:30 PM
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Default Re: Crucifix

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Originally Posted by Zidanie5 View Post
The Catholic Church is rich, and it has many interests in befriending high-profile politicians. The result is treatises stating that Italy as a Country favors Catholicism in many ways, not last a crucifix in places like schools, but think about ICI:
- you're poor and live in a pigstylike 50m2 house -> you pay a lot of taxes for having a roof on your head
- you've been bathing in gold (not always "christianly" obtained) for centuries -> you don't pay anything for the beautiful buildings where you officiate ceremonies

The steps:
1) Optionally base yourself on centuries of bloody history (optional as we can see Scientology didn't)
2) Build connections with the governors and important people (and I don't believe they're very religious, with all the s**t they do)
3) Surround people with religious symbols (we could also call it advertisement), exploit their imposed faith
4) You'll have more people to church, more people donating money, another stack of gold somewhere in the Vatican.
5) Re-invest that money in the fortification of the process
No more no less what multinationals do. Church today is not much different from Exxon or Microsoft.
Zidanie,

Everything you say is basically true but corruption is a part of life. If we were to look at how corrupt many big cooperations and institutins are and then decide to ban their products based on that corruption, we would have no world econony. We are all victims of "advertisment" and "brainwashing" It's a sad part of our world. Are you saying that we have to hide certain images becasue people are not smart enough to think for themselves?
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  #34  
Old 11-08-2009, 08:29 PM
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Default Re: Crucifix

So you say that it is a common thing also outside Italy? I think that only here so much is done to keep you ignorant of what goes on around you, the US have many bad sides, but culture is much more free, and if someone wants they can have their ideas. The problem in many rich countries nowadays is that people don't want to make efforts in order to build their own opinions, while in Italy you don't have a way to do it. And I just think that probably the presence (and overpresence if this word exists) of Catholic Church helped shaping a country of sheep following orders.
You see, in France they would've never accepted such corrupted politicians, so many fascist and racist propaganda, and so many abuses. The Parliament would already be in flames.
In UK the government structure and their great respect for law prevents these things.
Here we accept everything without saying a word.
The Prime Minister has gone through dozens of trials for corruption, links with mafia, tax evading and other sweet things? Ehhh, what can I do about it, he has a funny face and says jokes, let's vote for him.
The Italian Parliament is just a big reunion of sexual maniacs, drug addicted, mafiosi, making laws for themselves? Seems normal!
A religion preaches publicly and spreads their ideology in public places, influencing things they shouldn't influence? Not a big matter, that's tradition.
And so on.
My point is: people here COULD think for themselves if they had a chance, but few have, because of the structure of Italy, based on corruption and propaganda.
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  #35  
Old 11-09-2009, 02:27 AM
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Default Re: Crucifix

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Originally Posted by Zidanie5 View Post
So you say that it is a common thing also outside Italy? I think that only here so much is done to keep you ignorant of what goes on around you, the US have many bad sides, but culture is much more free, and if someone wants they can have their ideas. The problem in many rich countries nowadays is that people don't want to make efforts in order to build their own opinions, while in Italy you don't have a way to do it. And I just think that probably the presence (and overpresence if this word exists) of Catholic Church helped shaping a country of sheep following orders.
You see, in France they would've never accepted such corrupted politicians, so many fascist and racist propaganda, and so many abuses. The Parliament would already be in flames.
In UK the government structure and their great respect for law prevents these things.
Here we accept everything without saying a word.
The Prime Minister has gone through dozens of trials for corruption, links with mafia, tax evading and other sweet things? Ehhh, what can I do about it, he has a funny face and says jokes, let's vote for him.
The Italian Parliament is just a big reunion of sexual maniacs, drug addicted, mafiosi, making laws for themselves? Seems normal!
A religion preaches publicly and spreads their ideology in public places, influencing things they shouldn't influence? Not a big matter, that's tradition.
And so on.
My point is: people here COULD think for themselves if they had a chance, but few have, because of the structure of Italy, based on corruption and propaganda.


Mamma mia, santo cielo! You tell'em Z!

That crucifix on the wall represents more harm than good. Recall the St. Bartholomew Square massacre, where 40,000 Christians were murdered in a single day because they were protestant. This violence, which the Catholic church started and fueled caused skeptics like Voltaire and Rousseau to become anti-Christian thinkers and they began to propagate an atheistic socialism. After joing their ideals with German rationalism they created secular humanism.

Secular humanism is a humanist philosophy that espouses reason, ethics, and justice, and specifically rejects the supernatural and the spiritual as the basis of moral reflection and decision-making. Like other types of humanism, secular humanism is a life stance that focuses on the way human beings can lead good, happy and functional lives.

Last edited by Villa; 11-09-2009 at 03:10 AM.
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  #36  
Old 11-09-2009, 01:00 PM
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Default Re: Crucifix

Zidanie,

Thank you for shedding good light on this topic and for teaching me more about Italy! I'm not saying that you have changed my mind or that I want the crucifix to be removed but I now understand much better the differences between Italian and American Government and how the people are influenced by the type of regime under which they live.
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Last edited by Giacomo; 11-09-2009 at 06:23 PM.
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  #37  
Old 11-17-2009, 01:51 PM
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Default Re: Crucifix

Zidanie,

Did you see the news today about how Gaddafi is also againt the crucifix in the classroom?
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