You are exactly right Sardoman, Sardinian is its own language that shares a common ancestry with modern Italian - Vulgar Latin. What solidifies this point to me is the fact that Sardinian has so many dialects. How can a dialect have dialects? It is definetly its own language.

My family, and most others from my hometown come from Sicily, another Island where the people cannot understand each other due to dialect. My wife says that when she was younger her grandparents used to argue about how to say things in "Italian" Little did they know at the time that her grandfather was teaching her Sicilian while her grandmother was teaching her Sardinian! No wonder they say we don't speak right when visiting.

Like Sardinian, I feel that Sicilian is traditionaly a separate language - especially if you consider the countless loan words and corruptions from Greek, Arabic, Norman French, Spanish and modern Italian. Many Sicilian words I grew up saying have no root in Italian, or Latin for that matter. It may be counted as a dialect, but my cousins still speak it in Terrasini and amongst fellow Sicilians.

I wrote an article on my belief that Sicilian is a language, not a dialect if anyone is interested: http://www.lifeinitaly.com/tourism/s...n-language.asp

Although I am a big supporter of preserving languages, we must remember that languages, like culture are plastic in nature and never stay the same for long.

:-) don't worry about that remember that the dialect is a closed language, normally you can hear about this beautiful plunge in the past ...
But the problem is that slowly slowly the beautifull sound of the dialect disappear many young forget his origin ....

Sardinia? sorry but I don't understand so mutch where do you come frome?

In sardinia in Italy there are many dialect in some parts especially in the north speck CATALANO (spanish
In sardinia I think they have a very musical language.
There are many typical singers that sing using the tong like a musical instrument ... they are fantastic

Yes I think the same, in Italy there are many language and dialet
In Sicilia Puglia Calabria Molise there are some village where can spoke only in Albanian or Greek is famouse PIANA DEGLI ALBANESI a village near Palermo where people spoke Albanian and are muslim, You thik you are in Albania.

Italy after the roman empire was cut in 1000 little country some one was only a city or a village.

Italy come back a unite state on 1860. this gave to Italy many many different culture, color, language, but I think is the splendor of Italy

In many palace there are rivalry between the city niarest or whit north and south

I live many Years in florence to play Rugby, I was a professional players. in tuscany till 1800 there are undred little country

Famouse was the rivality between Pisa and Florence and Pisa whit Livorno et many more.

Today when there are football match they punch evry time

The Livornesi say: "Meglio un morto in casa che un pisano alla porta"

best a dead in home that a Pisano at the door" is like to say I prefer a dead in Home but not have a parent from Pisa :-) they are crazy :-)



"Scarliga merluss che le minga ul to uss" che vuol dire letteralmente "merluzzo che scivola nn è cosa tua", è una bel modo di dire milanese
deriva dall'Ottocento, Milano era un crocevia di commercio e tanti pescatori portavano le merci a Milano per poi distribuirle per l'europa centrale e le altre città italiane. Moltissimi erano i lavoratori a giornata, quelli che si pagavano per far un solo lavoro e tantissimi nn sapendo maneggiare i pesci cadevano,
quindi gli dicevano TA SE COM UN SARLINGA MERLUSS CHE SCHI LE NO UL TO MESTE" sei come un merluzzo che scivola, questo nn è un lavoro per te. E' diventato un modo di dire quando qualcuno fa una cosa goffamente

Ps cardano al campo è molto vicino casa mia, io sono quasi a LEGNANO :-)

ps un sito di proverbi milanesi è:
http://www.scienafregia.it/proverbi/?ID=248

__________________
Fulvio
from the sunny Italy

http://www.lepedanevibranti.it

Ciao Fulvio,
sono inglese ma vivo a Cagliari. Ho vissuto a Milano quando ero un bambino ma non mi lo ricordo purtroppo.

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Wow! Fulvio the mind boggles at the italian dialects. It is true to say that a Neapolitan would not understand the dialect of a Venetian & vice versa. However, long may the dialects last, - after all they are languages in their own right so why should everybody speak "standard" italian, which I understand is actually Florentine dialect after all.

some example of the origin of MILANESE my language, I can do the same for all other dialect but I have no time

Milanese [Origin] = Italiano - English

From Latin

tos et tosa [tonsum e tonsam] = Ragazzo e ragazza - Boy & Girl
micheta [micam] = Panino - sandwich
quadrell [quadrellum] = Trippa - Brick
nagott [ne gutta quidem] = Nulla, manco una goccia - nothing

From Germanic
ruff [hurf] = Immondizzia - rubbish
busèca [butze] = Trippa - Tripe (typical in Milan)
ganìvell [gannev] = Giovane - Young

From French
sacranon [Sacrè nom de Dieu] = Sancramento - Damn
clèr [éclair] = Saracinesca - Port Cullis
buscion [bouchon] = Turacciolo o Bottiglione - cork or Big Bottle

From Spanish
infescià [infecar] = sporcare - stain
rognà [rosnar] = brontolare - Grumble
fà maron [marro] = sbaglio, sbagliare - Mistake, to make a Mistake

From Deuch
slandra [schlendern] = prostituta o bighellonare - Whore or (slug(to idle))
sgnappa [schnaps] = grappa


only few examples
ciao

__________________
Fulvio
from the sunny Italy

http://www.lepedanevibranti.it

A funny thing occurred to me while I was reading the heading about dialects in Italy. I realized that I speak excellent Italian,but I speak calabrian dialect fluently. I live in a region near Bova and the elderly speak an ancient form of Greek which I understand and speak. Yeah! dialects have a strong base and the most average person tend have conversations in dialect in this area even if you are a foreigner. I studied some Italian before moving to Italy, but all that studying went out the door when the people in the village begin to speak to me in the local dialect. I spent hours looking up words in my little Italian-English dictionary,and in my Spanish-Italian dictionary that never existed. Yep! The most of it was pure dialect and I actually learned the dialect before I learned Italian because the local dialect has a lot of words that are similar to Spanish. Now if I can just reach that Italian fluency level like I have reached in calabrian dialect.

I taught Spanish for 30+ years and am currently teaching beginning Italian. Dialects are what really fascinate me. This past summer while staying and studying in Perugia I tried to find out all I could on dialects in Italy. I talked to my teachers about dialects in Italy, recorded people from different regions, recorded a TV program about dialects in Italy etc. etc. All four of my teachers were from different locations in Italy. They all had a different accent although they all were speaking in standard Italian. One of them even said that she spoke more clearly or standardly than the other teachers. Only one of the teachers was from Perugia. I can pick up on that accent anytime now.

I am not an expert on anyting let alone dialects but like I said they sure fascinate me. They say that there is a change in language about every 18 miles in any given country. That makes sence. You should see how my farmer cowboy relatives from Arkansas, Oklahoma and Southeast Kansas speak.

Being a Spanish teacher and now also an Italian teacher(for 3 years)I've had more than enough time to compare the two languages. What I would like to know is how can Spanish(Castillan)be so close to or closer to standard Italian than many of the dialects of Italy itself? (Maybe this is just a retorical question)

An interesting story is my sister's husband's father is from Valencia, Spain. In Valencia they speak a dialect of Catalan as well as Spanish. Well it seems that Catalan is even closer to standard Italian than Spanish is.(Catalan is also spoken in parts of Sardinia)
My brother-in-law's father told me the interesting story that when he came to the U.S. he got a job in an Italian ristorante. He could communicate just fine with the Italian workers. They said something like, Hey, he's a long lost cousin. Again somewhat retorically, how can Catalan be so close to standard Italian as opposed to say Napolitano o Siciliano?

My Spanish speaking students(almost all are Spanish speaking)learn to read Italian right off after I give them an explination of the few differences in the sounds of the Italian letters. For example "gn" which has the same sound in Spanish but in Spanish they use another letter, the gli which is like Spanish y or ll and a few others. The vowels are virtually the same in Span. and Italian. The "R" and rr is rolled the same in both languages. The t and d sounds are the same etc. etc. Both Italian and Spanish are spoken in the front of the mouth instead of the back of the mouth like English is. Again if standard Italian and Spanish are so close why aren't other dialects closer to standard Italian?

If you think that Spanish or Castilian is the language of Spain, you're only partially right.

True, Spanish is the national language and the only language you can use if you want to be understood almost everywhere. But Spain also has three other officially recognized languages, and language use continues to be a hot political issue in parts of the country. In fact, about a fourth of the country's residents use a tongue other than Spanish as their first language. Here is a brief look at those languages:

Euskara: Euskara is easily the most unusual language of Spain — and an unusual language for Europe as well, since it doesn't fit in the Indo-European family of languages that includes Spanish as well as French, English and the other Romance and Germanic languages.

Euskara is the language spoken by the Basque people, an ethnic group in both Spain and France that has its own identity as well as separatist sentiments on both sides of the Franco-Spanish border. (Euskara has no legal recognition in France, where far fewer people speak it). About 600,000 speak Euskara, sometimes known as Basque, as a first language.

What makes Euskara linguistically interesting is that it has not been shown conclusively to be related to any other language. Some of its characteristics include three classes of quantity (single, plural and indefinite), numerous declinations, positional nouns, regular spelling, a relative lack of irregular verbs, no gender, and pluri-personal verbs. The fact that Euskara is an ergative language (a linguistic term involving cases of nouns and their relations to verbs) has caused some linguists to think that Euskara my have come from the Caucasus region, although the relationship with languages of that area hasn't been demonstrated. In any case, it is likely that Euskara, or least the language it developed from, has been in the area for thousands of years, and at one time it was spoken in a much larger region.

The most common English word that comes from Euskara is "silhouette," the French spelling of a Basque surname. The rare English word "bilbo," a type of sword, is the Euskara word for Bilbao, a city on the western edge of Basque Country. And "chaparral" came to English by way of Spanish, which modified the Euskara word txapar, a thicket. The most common Spanish word that came from Euskara is izquierda, "left."

Euskara uses the Roman alphabet, including most letters that other European languages use, and the ñ. Most of the letters are pronounced roughly like they would be in Spanish.

Catalan: Catalan is spoken not only in Spain, but also in parts of Andorra (where it is the national language), France and Sardinia in Italy.

Catalan looks something like a cross between Spanish and French, although it is a major language in its own right and, some say, may be more similar to Italian than it is to Spanish. Its alphabet is similar to that of English, although it also includes a Ç. Vowels can take both grave and acute accents (as in à and á, respectively). Conjugation is quite similar to Spanish's.

About 4 million people use Catalan as a first language, with about that many also speaking it as a second language.

Galician: Galician has strong similarities to Portuguese, especially in vocabulary and syntax. It developed along with Portuguese until the 14th century, when a split developed, largely for political reasons. For the native Galician speaker, Portuguese is about 85 percent intelligible.

About 4 million people speak Galician, 3 million of them in Spain, the rest in Portugal with a few communities in Latin America.

Miscellaneous languages: Scattered throughout Spain are a variety of smaller ethnic groups with their own languages, most of them Latin derivatives. Among them are Aragonese, Asturian, Caló, Valencian (usually considered a dialect of Catalan), Extremaduran, Gascon and Occitan.