Ciao miei amici,

I recently had a conversation with a friend that has started me thinking, so I'd like to get others' opinions and thoughts on the subject. This Forum is perfect because it's a huge and wonderful mix of people from all over the world, and that should give us a good cross section of perspectives.

The subject that has me thinking so much is known by many different terms. Taking a lover, having an affair, etc.

This practice seems to be more commonly accepted in European countries than in the U.S. Let me clarify that... I think it happens just as often almost everywhere but it seem that in the U.S. it is seen as some varying form of evil, wrong, bad, no matter what.

Contrarily, it seems as though other societies/cultures view it more tolerantly. Some would say they have a move civilized view, and an acceptance of the whole idea that is more advanced or more relevant to today's world.

Possible talking points:

In a culture where it's more accepted, would people be less inclined to freak out about it? Maybe this would lead to less hurt, anger, divorce.

Could it be argued that an outside affair keeps the excitement going in one's main relationship, and makes you appreciate your partner and your home life more, while still allowing for new adventures?

Or is it just something to avoid at all costs?

So.
Rather than go on about it, and rather than state where I am on this subject right up front, I'd like to hear how each of you feels about it, and also I'd like to hear your thoughts on what you think is the perception of this practice in the country you're from, and the one you live in if that's different.

Thoughts?

Teresa

Hi Teresa,
Some men, or maybe more than I think, must always be stimulated by something new. It seems as though once they become too familiar with the ways of one woman, they lose their strong stimulation. I cant say this is for all cases, but they have this tendency for some reason. In Roald Dahl's "My Uncle Oswald" he explains it very well, he advised every man to the No-Woman-More than-once--for any man who enjoyed variety. Maybe it's in their nature, it is for sure, and they react badly, and are unhappy if you contrict them, anyone would be...thing is, if the woman can stand it....can live with it....can be exepting of it...its a difficult spot to be in. How do you open your heart to someone, then every once in a while he's sleeping with another body next to him, I dont know, this discourages me, but I always think they should be happy, but it doesnt make me feel on top of the world at all. I dont think I have an answer to this one..as I am going around in circles, maybe a man can put us all at ease!

Jacqueline...

I'm so sorry... it seems I have put you into a funk. :o

Please don't despair! There are many men out there who stay faithful! I know many of them. :) I think the desire to be with different women is indeed a characteristic of many men, but I also think many men resist it quite successfully.

I also know many who have had outside affairs and their wives' responses have ranged from a truly heartfelt "Whatever makes him happy" to "I'm divorcing the bas***d."

On another track, I can say I've known quite a few couples who had successful, happy, fulfilling open marriages. I know many people would think that's an oxymoron but it worked for them. And each couple, who didn't know each other, said that the key was total honesty. They each had veto power over their partner's lovers, and each of them made sure to keep everything out on the table. Interestingly, the only time I've seen that get all messed up was when one of them had an affair they lied about.

So maybe it's about honesty, no matter what?? That could be scary, though, too.... :eek:

Teresa

Teresa--I think you hit on something important. How everything would change if the two were open and completely honest. you would know one another better for sure, and would be able to discuss things and agree or disagree--the important thing would be that you both didnt go out and hurt each other behind one another's backs like you mentioned...but not many people can deal with this for guilt's sake...or that magical flair of jealousy...incontrollable jealousy that is inborn in some people....well, we all must find a medium that is right for us I guess

Jealousy is an interesting part of the whole equation for sure. I don't think it's controllable, it does flash through when there's a threat to the relationship by an outside person, man or woman.

The couples I know who have been doing this for a long time have the policy of letting that initial reaction settle, analyzing it a little bit - is it realistic or just fear/insecurity based - and then they talk about it with their partners.

And again, the veto is the most important part of the whole thing. If that feeling of jealousy won't go away, or if it's based on really just not liking the person, then you say "no" and that is that.

I think these relationships are (maybe more than others...?) based on trust. (Hmm. That ought to get some reactions. :D )

Teresa

marriages are about exclusivity.

I see marriage as a sacred tiem in life. When I say I do it means forever. I do not believe in cheating on whoever I am with. I do not think I could ever look at having an affair as a good thing. But thats just me

I believe in faithfull but you never know!

Interesting thread.

I don't know how one can speak about faithfulness when a person makes personal sacrifices, works and mixes their life with another person and then one of the two steps out of the relationship to have fun with someone else. I think I can probably forgive my partner having a fling but having the person I am with fall in love [lust] (I see that it's lust; they unfaithful may see it as "love") is probable too painful and I think I would want to just end it out of the hurt it causes. I have friend who is single but completly in love with a married woman who lives in a handsome McMansion, with an SUV and a recent boob job. She gets no emotional love from her husband but obviously, she is well-maintianed. He treats her like dirt. My friend thinks the guy's a jerk; I think she is the most needy person and fundamentally weak for not leaving her husband to be with the guy she alledgedly loves. But who am I to judge? I fear that the whole thing is going to end really badly because she's not going to give up her comfortable life for the unknown. And she obviously likes the material things that outweigh the lack of love in her marriage. So she is completely infactuated with my friend. When the husband finds out, he's going to be really, really upset. It's not the actual act of sex that hurts, it's the deception and pack of lies that goes along with it and personally, I just couldn't live with myself sharing my privates with more than one person - I can't multimen. As far as open marriages go, that would really depress me because physical intimacy would be reduced to a mere sport.
Realistically, if you respect the other person, you probably won't cheat. And the places where cheating seems more accepted, I venture to say it's only about the man cheating because I've never met a man who din't blow a gasket or was complete devasted because their beloved went to someone else's well - even if said man was a jerk to their cheating partner.

Ciao!

Great answers and thoughts so far!

So what do you all think your particular culture or society's perspective is on this subject? And/or have you traveled to other parts of the world where this issue might have come to your attention?

I'm curious about Italy in particular, of course, but also in France (where I've heard and the rumor is that affairs are an accepted part of marriage) and other European countries.

I know I still haven't said where I am on this issue yet... I'm more curious about the great responses for a while! :D I'll have something definitive to say soon!

Teresa

I hate to admit this here, but maybe I shall anyways. This whole thing discourages me some more--- to give my heart competely to any one person is like jumping into a pool with no water. I am frightened to give it-- its so tender and mine--I fear they will step on it, leaving me broken to pieces. I am maybe sentimental, its true, but I really do not like playing games, being direct and considering myself quite honest--its hard to see a clear picture--of some life with a person without the big waves, or worse a cyclone. Its a scary road...we proceed blindfolded, and this I do not like at all.

Hello to all!

I cant believe I have not joined this forum earlier. I guess I just didn"t see it. It is a great site where I planned and greatly enjoyed my trips to Italia. This is my first time so be patient with me. Jacqueline and Teresa I will give my Humble opinion.

To me marriage is about trust and respect and honesty but most of all staying in love. Big words indeed to live by and follow through with every day. How do people fall in and out of love is my question? I was married for 20 years. Provided for my family ,worked hard, and most of all I loved my wife. What happened? My wife fell out of love for me. I never understood this until after the divorce. I blamed my self etc.
But it just happened and I can look back and see it unfold now but not then. While I stayed busy with work I enjoyed,she wasn"t happy with her job. It started there. Then she was unhappy with the house. Then she started picking fights with me to get a reaction. Well she fell out of love. When I asked what was really wrong all I got was lies and stories. I tried to fix things. P.S. you cant! I was losing my trust in her. I was losing my honesty with her. Then when I found out that one of my freinds saw her with another guy,I lost my rspect for her. Thats it.
But getiing back to the thread. I feel that if you have a stable relationship Jacqulene and Teresa you have to go all in and lay your heart all out,Yes even to get stepped on like when we were young. But when it was working wasnt it a great feeling? Yes and we do survive and you will. Trust, Respect of one another ,Honesty and stay in love.

Jacqueline,

I understand your position completely. Yes, to give one's heart is very risky. And to give it unconditionally is very difficult. The worst of it is, most of the times it is not given. You do not go into love, you fall in love.

Sounds scary, and it is scary. But that should not stop people from trying. In this world torn by strife, violence, disease and depression, love may be the only thing worth living for.

A relationship may not last, but if it was beautiful, a part of it always remains with you.

For me, I think all our adult life is a quest for that perfect relationship, one that can't last but is gut-wrenchingly beautiful, or one that does, staying with you like that t-shirt you have had for ages, comfortable, perhaps a little shabby, but indispensable.

Ciao a tutti!

Eduardo (and Bubbles) I agree that the only solution is to go for it. Give your heart, feel all that gorgeous sweet wonderful stuff. Then if it doesn't work out in the future, yes it will hurt but... isn't that better than not trying at all? It is rare that a failed relationship equals a failed life, and there are always more opportunities to find love.

As for 'taking a lover...' ?

I am conflicted about this subject, actually. I guess I want to believe that true love forever, and fidelity and honesty in all things, are possible and easy, and that it really does happen. And I know it does, often.

And yet I've seen and experienced my share of things that would contradict that belief. So, maybe the key is to promise your husband/wife that you will, no matter what, be honest. That may be the best we can hope for.

And honesty isn't such a bad thing, is it? In fact, isn't it the bedrock of all the rest of it?

An old friend of mine says "sex is just bodies, what I care about is the heart and mind. My wife can do what she wants, so long as she never stops loving me." And wouldn't you know it... his wife has never strayed.

Teresa

Hi Theresa,

I will tell you how it is here in Italy. I admire you for taking on this discussion thread. Now I will add my two cents worth.

I admire people who have open views about different ways to experience marriage. Why? Because it shows that we are acknowledging the fact that we all have needs at different times in our lives, but it is much more than that. Some people just really want to see their spouse happy and if that means giving them the freedom to see other people, and they are honest about it, then why not? But of course many could not accept such a way of thinking and it would offend them. I think one has to be a very strong person to give another the freedom and most people are not so strong in this meaning. They are so afraid of losing their partner.

But here in Italy, it is an unwritten rule: marriage is exclusivity. This is not always such a good thing. Exclusivity is about controlling someone isn't it? Italian men tend to be very controlling over their woman and I do not think this is neceassarily good. Many are so controlling that they make their foreign wives very unhappy, especially American women. I have some American women friends, all getting divorces from their Italian husbands because they were so controlling. American women are more extrovert too than the Italian women. Also, I do not think it is healthy for a woman to be overly jealous of other women that her husband or boyfriend looks at. Jealousy is a form of hatred. But the Italian woman has a reputation for being very controlling too.

Here in Italy taking a lover is a big no, no. But men some how get away with it. But a woman cannot. Society permits men being able to satisfy their sexual needs, but not the woman because hers does not need to be satisfied. Isn't that it? ... But what is good for the gander should be good for the goose too, right? The one thing that I find both unrealistic and yet amusing is the fact that Italy has this big reptuation for being the land of romance. It is not true. It is quite stifling actually.

But in the end it is always about controlling a person isn't it. I mean, what other reason could there be for not wanting an open marriage, or saying its not alright for a woman to have a lover?

kfscala

kfscala,

I disagree with you on your last paragraph. Being married is not about controlling a person it is a union between 2 people supposedly in love forever no? Too corny? I think not. You describe an open marriage as the man and wife being free going out and pursuing what ever desires they want? Why be married?To me that is definately not marriage. I dont care what country you are from.

I really dont think the majority of Italians think that way. And why shouldn't marriage be exclusive to just husband and wife? Isn't that what it was meant for? To be truly in love is not controlling ever. It is giving ones self unselfishly and loving only one. I dont aggree with your post. You tend to be very negative in your posts. I am sorry for that. I wish I lived in Italy. I definately would be happy.

Ciao

You obviously do NOT know anything about the history of marriage and why it even came to be. Marriage is a contract. Started back in the 1600's (U.K.). Other countries differ on thier civil laws about marriage. But basically the reasons for marriage were always the same: control of property and succession of property. In the old days women were the property of men, they were chattel. Women did not have property rights and no rights over themselves or their bodies. Marriage was devised not just for socially controlling women but for having a legal means for property succession when a man had a male child. Males inherited property and not women. Also rich families married because they wanted to merge assets and this happened all over Europe. It was not until the 20th century that things actually changed. Yet still today many people don't even know the history as to why we have marriage. It has always been about property control and women included, unfortunately. Men today still in many ways view thier women as something they want to have control over.

I suggest you go and read a law book on common law, it will enlighten you.

kfscala

Eduardo,

It may sound negative to you but the reality is that when I say control there is a reason for it and control does have its roots. Now I will explain. The history of marriage is an interesting subject. Marriage (in modern terms) is a contract, a civil contract. Started back in the 1600's (England) in the common law countries. Other countries on the European continent differed somewhat in their civil laws about marriage and how it evolved. And, I am not an expert on this. But basically the reasons for marriage were always the same: control of property and succession of property. In the old days women were the property of men, they were chattel. Women did not have property rights and no rights over themselves or their bodies. Marriage was devised not just for socially controlling women but for having a legal instrument for property succession when a man had a male child. Males inherited property and not usually women. Perhaps in Italy this was different and I don’t know much about it. Also rich families married because they wanted to merge assets. It was not until the 20th century that things actually changed. We have the women rights movement (the first wave in the early 20th C.) to thank for that. But even back in 1848 a social revolution started. Yet, still today many people don't even know the history as to why we have marriage. The churches have an institution of marriage, but again it is about control, i.e a woman is always supposed to be married and have children. But in the secular world it has always been about property control and women were considered property, unfortunately. In some ways the old thinking still pervails, for men today still in many ways view their women as something to have control over.

But today many people in the Western world have different views of marriage. Then again you have different versions of marriage like a man with several wives and there are also cultures in asia where a woman has several husbands. Marriage is an interesting concept.

Many young italian women now do not want to get married. They reject the old traditional lifestyle. Why? That would take an essay. These young women want to be like American or north European women I am told. I have met many of these young Italian women especially from the south of Italy who come to the north so they can have a job and earn money and make life as a career woman.

Ultimately, if two people really love each other they don't need a contract between them, do they?


kfscala

Kfscala,

This is just my opinion.I feel marriage has evolved a little more than you say, Its a lot more than a civil contract. Do you listen to what you write? History Lesson? I am living it now. Of course different countrys have different traditions etc. Talk about now today. With the world in its state nowadays, Nothing is sacred, binding,any more. If you dont like it the easy way out is divorce or just to walk away.
While there is a small percentage of what you say in marriages today and I say very small. You pretty much sum it up as a sham. And since when is the 1600's modern times. marriage has evolved, it is a union not just a contract.1800's? How about a pledge between 2 people to be faithful to one another. You seem to be against marriage. Why does there always have to be a compromise. Why get married at all. Some don't so be it. Are you married? Have you been?

I forgot something significant. Marriage is today still very much a sexual contract which has its roots in the law of property. Maybe now it is more complicated than that given the new reproductive technology and the lawsuits you see in the media these days. Why do you think divorce is so messy? Anyone that has ever gone through a divorce will know what I mean. If you read up on some legal literature especially on common law, you can get a better picture of what I am talking about. When I studied common law and contracts I was intrigued by the evolution of our modern legal system.

kfscala

Forget it, I am sorry for wasting our time. Ciao

Hello Eduardo,

I don't disagree with everything you say. I see your point quite clearly. I think marriage can be a beautiful thing and I personally would like to see less divorce out in the world. And it is interesting to talk about. I could go on and on about this. All opinions have both positive and negative aspects.

But...we are going off on a tangent because....this discussion thread is SUPPOSED to be about "Italian Lovers" and was started by Theresa. So, out of respect for the main focus of this thread we should divert back to what Theresa was talking about.

Theresa, where are you??

ciao,
Karin

Theresa,

I have something to interject into the discussion. About 4 years ago I read a survey done in Italy about infidelity in marriage. I think it was 60-70 percent of married women in Italy had affairs. I will try to find the data. Then read about summertime in Italy and lovers. See the weblink below.

In relation to this we have to understand why this is happening...I asked Italians about this. The divorce rate in comparison to the USA and the rest of the EU is very low. Why? It is because (1) divorce is very difficult to do in Italy and takes a very long time, but lawyers are pushing for changes; (2) A family benefits economically and socially when the family stays intact, so even if there are problems and unhappiness between a married couple, they will always do what is best for the children and the family as a whole; the consequence often is that they go out and have affairs or even live separately to cope with the unhappiness. Here in Italy there is a mandatory 3 year legal separation period before one can even apply for a divorce. But a divorce in Italy is something very serious and it is something that most Italians do not want to do even if they are unhappy with their marriage. They find ways to endure an unhappy marriage.

Also read …..An Italian Tradition of Infidelity…. http://www.beginningwithi.com/italy/living/summer_lovin.htm

Karin

I think the biggest differences between Italy and America about divorce are :

- Italy is a catholic country
- We have a Pope
- it's very expensive to divorce
- in Italy the family is a very important institution, also sometimes
hypocrisy is a very comfortable thing too. A lot of people sometimes thinks it's easier to maintain two relations, more affairs , without breaking off definitively.

I'm sorry if I am wrong, but I'm an italian with a big goal: to improve my English.

See you Singapore63

Hi Singapore,

I do not think you are wrong. I agree with what you are saying. I have been living in Italy for 10 years so I understand you very well. The family is very important in Italian culture. But for people who do not live in Italy, for example Americans who only visit here very infrequently, they will never understand. Americans will try to apply their own norms to such issues. But this is not America, this is Italy. I as an American accept the way things are here, even if I do not always agree with it. Like I said this is Italy and it is the culture of the Italian people. We must always remember that there is not necessarily one right view about something. In some ways marriage and maintaining affaris on the side (which Americans may view as hypocrisy) is not entirely bad either. If it helps to keep the marriage together and the family together then that is a positive thing--keeping the family together is important.

Karin

Karin,

Thanks for bringing this back to the original subject... but before I launch into it again I'd like to address Eduardo, and also some of your points.

First, marriage started long long before the 1600s. It was around 2000 years ago, and long before. Ancient Egypt had marriage, ancient Greece... so to say it started in the 1600s is just not true.

And while yes originally it was a way to create/cement/solidify relationships - economic, political, religious... a way to protect borders, to guarantee heirs, to gain property of all kinds - and yes, women were seen as such for much of history in many cultures, but not all, and not always... (and I would even venture to say that not infrequently even when a marriage started that way, it grew into something more), and while yes it still IS those things in some countries and cultures... the institution of marriage in most countries/cultures today is absolutely NOT that.

I think if you talk to most men and women in Italy, the States, France, Germany, Switzerland... in fact, pick a "Western" country and ask, and most of the people who have been married, want to be married, are planning to get married will say it's for love.

The byproduct of marriage, due to its very nature, is often all the things you said but to reduce marriage to those things is to do a disservice to not only marriage but to those who marry someone they love.

Teresa