Italy is well known for consumption of horsemeat by humans, but Italy is not the only country. Horsemeat is consumed by humans in Belgium, France and Japan, and to a far lesser degree in Denmark. In the U.S.A. eating horsemeat is not an acceptable cultural practice and illiegal. Recently in the news major progress has been made in the U.S.A for closing down slaughter houses. The 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New Orleans ruled on January 19, 2007 to close down 2 foreign owned horse slaughter factories in Texas, and recently on March 7, 2007 the court confirmed its original ruling to ban the slaughter of horses for human consumption after the defendents tried to appeal. About 85,000 plus horses, are slaughtered in the U.S.A. according to the recent statistics and shipped to Belgium, Italy, France and Japan.

I have owned, raised young horses, trained and competed with horses all of my life. As a person who has interacted with the emotions and souls of horses, it is very difficult for me to see people buying horsmeat in the supermarket. The biggest shock for me was in Turin 8 years ago when I saw a horsemeat butcher shop that had an english riding saddle hanging in its front display window--and it is still there as of last week when I was in Turin. My husband and I have visited the yards of horsemeat dealers here in Italy and have seen the large herds of horses shipped over from Argentina--primarily Criollos and Criollo crosses--for human consumption. It is heart wretching to see this. Those horses destined for slaughter are the ones, who with their meat and blood, pay for the transport of the first class passengers on board these ships, that is the expensive polo ponies and riding horses. Moreover, the ones who are so sick and nearly dead upon nearing the Italian coast are thrown over board to be eaten up by the sharks swimming in the waters off the coast of Bari in southern Italy. The fate of the horses is something that I cannot fathom.

I am against the slaughter of horses for human consumption, for many reasons. But those who defend horse slaughter have their arguments and, I, of course, may even agree with some of their arguments. My main argument for opposing the slaughter of horses for human consumption is that they are sentient, intelligent, very emotional animals who are our companions and riding partners and is it right that humans want and should be allowed to eat them? Should horse slaughter for human consumption be illegal in Italy too?

kfscala

kfscala,

I can see your point clearly, but I don't agree with you. This has been argued ad nauseam before, and I don't feel like getting deeply into the argument.

You love your horses - I have never been a horse owner but I can appreciate that they are majestic animals. But some 4H kid might think the same of his/her cow or pig. Some love their rabbits or birds. They are all living beings that would probably prefer to stay that way, but we humans eat them, because we're carnivores (check your teeth).

However you or I might feel about this, I don't believe it's the government's duty to legislate what we eat. People in various culture eat just about every kind of animal - from worms and insects to elephants and whales, and everything in between. Because one culture doesn't agree with another, should one legislate against the other?

jim

Some would say the government should not regulate what we eat, then why not eat dogs too. In Switzerland they eat dogs and in some Asian countries. What is the difference, right? Well, I don't feel that way. Most people who eat horses never had an encounter with one let alone a relationship that involved riding them.

Italy is also well known for it's cruelty to horses in general. This is well documented. And, the slaughter houses in the U.S.A., all of which have been foreign owned were no better. Horses should at minimum be slaughtered humanely, but here in Italy they are not. Most Italians in general have very negative view on animals, that is all animals. This is something I do not see in northern Europe or the U.S.A. Is that telling us something? Even the majority of latin cultures and Latin countries do not eat their horses. Just think of all the horses in Argentina. Why do the Italians eat horsemeat?

Since I actually have a background in handling horses and cattle, I can say this: there is a difference between horses and cattle in the way they interact with humans and their intelligence level. The more intelligent a species is, the less we should consider devouring them on the dinner plate.

Then you hear the argument: horsemeat is better than beef because of the higher protein. Yes, it is, but does it justify subjecting horses to extreme cruelty already before and during the slaughtering process? There are those who prefer not to think about where our food comes from that we buy in the supermarket and quite frankly we should think about it.

I think to look the other way is showing us something about ourselves and what we humans are becoming. How far will we go to satisfy our desire to eat meat? Are humans good, do all of us have a good will when it comes to treating animals with respect? If we take the attitude that we are carnivores does that mean we have the right to kill and eat all types of animal meat no matter who suffers? I think in the end the govenment has to do some regulating about what we can and cannot eat, especially when it concerns animals who suffer.

kfscala

Some would say the government should not regulate what we eat, then why not eat dogs too.

Your sense of logic confounds me. The government has no place regulating what we eat. Where will it end? When some trout-loving people pressure them to outlaw fish? No more snails for the French?


"If we take the attitude that we are carnivores does that mean we have the right to kill and eat all types of animal meat no matter who suffers?"

Do fish suffer when a hook rips out their gills, or they are caught in a net and dragged up on a boat? Do cows suffer when their throats are slit, or hit in the forehead with a pneumatic spike? Where do we draw the line? It's OK to eat cows, sheep, chickens, but not horses? They are all living beings.

Don't like it? Become a vegetarian.

jim

As far as I know, I have only eaten horsemeat once in Belgium. I have to say it was delicous and to be honest I have no qualms about eating any animal - so long as I didn't know him personally.

Food traditions are some of the most ingrained in our human psyche and some cultures are defined by what they eat and don't eat. In most of Africa hippo meat is considered taboo, but for the Wayto of Ethiopia's Lake Tana region, eating hippo meat is part of their cultural identity.

Dog, "man's best friend" has been breed for thousands of years in SE Asia for food - entire breeds were created only as a food source. I love dogs, but if someone took the time and care to prepare a meal of dog meat (especially since meat is a rare treat in parts of the world) I would eat it.

Guinea pig (Cuy) is still a meat staple in the Peruvian highlands but most westerners would not think of eating what they would call a pet.

There are plenty of parts of the world where people don't have the luxury of debating this topic. We on the other hand do, coming from what is considered a "civilized" society but there was a time (not too long ago) when Europeans were starving. Horsemeat may seen unneccessary in our "land of plenty" but it harkens back to a time when there was nothing else and some poor farmer had to slaughter his draught animals to keep his family alive. One tenet of Italian cuisine will always be true: it is based upon poverty.

I never understood why so many people want to save the "cute" animals. If you can do neat tricks like dolphins or have expressive eyes like seals and horses then we have to save them.:confused:

Hi justindemetri,

You said: "I never understood why so many people want to save the "cute" animals. "

Good point. If you take, say, the Buddhist perspective, all living creatures are equal. Some Hindus wear masks as not to inhale bugs or bacteria for the same reason. Where do we draw the line? Some see no difference between bugs, horses, dogs, or cats.

And I think the main point of this thread is - should the government control which foods we eat, and also should people from one country (the US) impose their values on other countries (i.e. Italy)? Other countries have different values. In Muslim countries pork is forbidden and many eat horses, camels, and sheep with impunity. Camels can be cute - who is right?

jim

I was just reading this issue on the forum.... and I cannot believe how humans think, especially defending horsemeat consumption.
I think that according to what kfscala said we should be showing to the world that we are better "animals" than others. This discussion is only teaching me that we are not the best but the worst instead....
I feel so sorry for the people that don't understand the position on horsemeat consumption from somebody that is a horse lover. In fact that shows me the narrow mind of those that thinks it is ok to eat horsemeat.
And I don't want to go further. I have several arguments to show that those supporting horsemeat consumption are wrong.

fantomatico,

What an absurd argument.

Just because you love horses, they shouldn't be eaten, right? Do you also want to legislate it worldwide?

I think horses are pretty cool animals, but I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be eaten. Personally I don't like the taste of horsemeat, it seems kind of sweet to me. Some of my Italian relatives like it, and we cook horse steaks on the BBQ quite often. No one is asking to eat your cute little pony.

Hey, I love iguanas - should we make laws banning the eating of them in Indonesia?

jim

Correction: humans are omnivores, not carnivores.

Some of you have missed the main points of the discussion. The criteria which I was using to argue my position were sentience, high intelligence, emotional senistivity, even rationality.
My reasons for arguing against a certain animal being eaten by humans is not based on “cuteness” or “because I love horses”.

The Buddhist perspective, misses the point. Bacteria and fish are not in the same category as dogs or horses or primates or dolphins or humans. That is some life forms are just not as sophisticated as others, e.g. the criteria I listed above. Also, using rodents as an example e.g. guinea pigs, is not the same as dogs or horses.

The point I made about eating dogs in an earlier post was missed obviously by some of you. I used the example of dogs for a reason. Dogs are highly intelligent, emotionally sensitive, and sentient creatures, not to mention their capacities for self-awareness. Snails and fish do not fit into this category. The point here is that an animal, be it horse or dog or another species--even dolphins--should not be consumed by humans of the reasons mentioned (in the second sentence above). Now let me put it in this way: if it was found scientifically, for example, that human flesh was higher in protein than horse flesh, would that justify humans eating human flesh? There are cannibals, but are they civilized humans? I think a species boundary line has to be drawn, but maybe it is not so much species as it is the mind of the animal (the criteria above) that should be respected. That is, if we humans are to consider ourselves above savagery we should consider how we treat those non-human animals who suffer the most when slaughtered.

It is also about treating animals with dignity. If an animal has only one life to life is that not a very good reason to treat them as good and as best as we can while they still are alive? That brings me to the next point: the cruelty of slaughter. If an animal is to be slaughtered, then that animal especiallythose who are of a higher intelligence and emotional sensitivity, should be treated in a kind way until its death and not put through a long cruel process dragging on for weeks. Slaughter if it really has to be done, needs to done with the least amount of suffering and pain during transport, handling and at slaughter utlimately. If it were at least done in a more humane way it might be more tolerated.

It is also NOT true that most Muslims eat horsemeat. People should not make claims without researching their data first.

Yes, I am quite aware dogs were bred for eating in Asia originally. But then, many Asian cultures really have no respect for animals to begin with and certainly not animals of higher intelligence, AND they also have no respect for women and children. So, the Asian element is not really a good defense; it just means the Asians did it; just because they did it does not mean it is the good and the right thing to do.

Kfscala

It is also about treating animals with dignity. If an animal has only one life to life is that not a very good reason to treat them as good and as best as we can while they still are alive?
Kfscala

It's not just the use of horses for food that leads to a loss of dignity. I was stunned by Susan Daniel's story covering cruelty to horses in order to extract an anti-cancer drug (read it here: http://www.susandaniel.com/premarin.html. I am full of admiration for this wonderful person in putting her own well-being at stake in order to prevent the exploitation of animals.

Ok I too want to give my 2 cents of wisdom :confused:

OK I do not think Karin has to be too allarmed about horse consumption:
I remember growing up in Rome there were many Carni Equine Macellerie ( Horse meat butchery ) ... each time I go back to Rome however more and more are closed down. There aren't many left in Rome ( I am not sure about the North ) but evidenty people are changing.
My neighbord here in the US is Vegan and I quite don't understand that : If people don't drink Milk or eat eggs farmers are not going to grow any animals at all and that is not good.
Vegetarian I do understand even if I am not sure what will be in the long run: If people will stop eating meat who will raise cattle ? Not the city falks who claim to be vegetarian or vegan .... It is all up top the farmer.
My solution is represneted here in the attached photograph:
I limit the consumption of meat and
1) I only buy Organic eggs where the chickens are garanteed to be cage free. Same thing for the beef : I try to buy organic meat where no antibiotic was given to the animals and they eat in open pastures.
At east I am trying with minimal effort to ensure a better life for this animals.
Paolo

PS Look at the attachment image
Ciao :-)

Hello Colci,

I have known about the Premarin mares in North Dakota and Manitoba , Canada since 1993. It is very, very sad.
Many people don't even know about this situation.

kfscala

Ciao Paolo,
up here in the north the supermarkets have very big sections for carni di cavallo. My gynecologist told me a few weeks ago to eat horsemeat because she was convinced I was anaemic (I'm just pale) and needed to eat protein and iron rich horsemeat; well I did the blood test and have normal iron levels! Anyways I won't eat it even if I were anaemic. To get iron I eat spinach, whole-grain rye bread, clams, and grass-grazed Piemontese beef.

kfscala

Ok but as I explained before my idea would be incrementing the awareness of animal treatment while animals are raised.
This should bring also more awareness of what animal we decide at the end to eat or not to eat.
I started buying a few years back organic eggs from free roaming chickens... I have been on a farm where there are free roaming chickens and on farm-factory where chicken are raised in boxes ... like an industrial business. I think the first solution, though more expensive is much better for the chicken life and for us. ... probably I am getting away from the subject but I feel it is all connected.
Paolo

Ciao a tutti!

What an interesting thread! I am going to probably start another heated argument here...

... I really don't think this issue is black and white, on any level. People around the world eat an almost endless variety of food, and each food item has its purpose, its reason for use, its advocates and its detractors, and I think as a universal TRUTH, there is no right and wrong about food and what we eat.

I don't believe in an ethics about WHICH animals get eaten.
Instead, I believe in an ethics that speaks to how those animals are treated while they are alive; this is one area where Karin and I are in alignment.

{Also, as with Karin, I have something in me that won't allow me to PURPOSELY eat animals with intelligence and awareness (or my perception that they have perception and awareness).

But unlike Karin, while I don't eat horses, or pigs, or dogs, or guinea pigs... or snails or grubs or rats or Brussels sprouts for that matter... regardless of this, and regardless of MY beliefs about it, I wouldn't try to tell others what animals they should or shouldn't eat. Which, by the way, is not to say I HAVEN'T eaten some of those things. When in China, hungry and unable to speak the language, when a family had spent a day cooking, I didn't ask whether I was eating rat, dog, snake, horse, pig, cow... I just ate. It was delicious. It was also probably something I wouldn't necessarily have chosen to eat on my own. When in Rome....}

My stance on this is that as living creatures, horses and pigs and dogs and guinea pigs and every other animal out there should be treated humanely, whether its eventual destination is old age sleeping on a thick bed in somebody's house, or as a course in a meal served on somebody's table.

Fuzzy, cute, ugly, scales or fur, any one animal isn't intrinsically worth more or less than any other. The choices come to each of us individually: do we eat meat? Do we eat no meat but do eat eggs and cheese (which contains a substance found in cow's stomachs, by the way, and there's only one way to get that)? Do we eat no meat at all but only fruits, veggies, grains and so on? It's a personal choice, and each is no better or worse than another.

I do believe we have a responsibility, as thinking animals who can make ethical and informed choices, to do what Paulo has suggested: I, too, shop for humanely treated and killed chickens, beef and so on. I eat only eggs from free-range chickens. I try to eat locally grown food, and locally bred and raised animals. And I eat game animals when my friends hunt them - elk is one of my favorites (and far lower in fat than beef, for anyone who's interested in trying some).

And this doesn't come from a person who is cold about animals. I love animals. I foster homeless dogs. I take in stray cats and rats and guinea pigs and dogs all the time. I have raised and worked with and trained horses all my life. I stop my car on the freeway to rescue kittens. And I would never dream in a million years of eating my own pets - they are my friends.

But that is a choice I am making. I wouldn't tell others they couldn't eat what they wanted to eat... well, unless they wanted to eat MY dogs or horses or cats. In that case, I'd defend them, literally, with everything I had.

So.
To wrap up then... I believe the treatment of animals - livestock, pets, dinner - is the ethical sticking point. And even that is probably a cultural, learned belief. Even so, I'll stick to it, and say that I'd like to see a world in which people really did value LIFE... of animals and of other people and cultures as well. What people eat isn't the issue. What people feel and think about life in general, on the other hand, very well could be.

Appreciation for life of any sort would go a long way toward making the world a better place all the way around.

Teresa

Ok - My ideas are expressed in the two short posts I wrote earlier and in the longer post written by Teresa. I cannot write as well as she does so I will limit my post by writing that she just expressed the point of view that I believe in.
A lot of times when in Italy I hear concerns with the fact that in the US hormones are allowed and I hear all those talk about US meat being the worse that you can eat. In Italy hormones are not allowed however... Italy being Italy I am not sure at all Italian farmers do not use them... after all all the cases of Mucca pazza / food and mouth diseases came from Europe and the chicken flu came from Asia. In any case feeding animals well and treting them well will also save us from the enormous expenses of this diseases.

PS Sorry for my English not as good as Karin and Teresa... Pero' il mio Italiano e' meglio :-)
Paolo

I have known about the Premarin mares in North Dakota and Manitoba , Canada since 1993. It is very, very sad.
Many people don't even know about this situation.

kfscala

There's so much we don't know. Here's another story about the Benetton possibly family enriching itself further at the expense of Australian sheep. Has anyone seen this reported in the Italian press? Are the reports true?

http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/hynde%20slams%20benetton%20for%20animal%20cruelty

Jah love
Colci

From the link above I have 'I was deeply upset to learn from my friends at PEOPLE FOR THE ETHICAL TREATMENT OF ANIMALS (PETA) about the extreme suffering of merino lambs and sheep in the Australian wool industry'


It sounds to me that while this should be pointed out to Bentton the post should go under Life in Australia .... :confused:

From the link above I have 'I was deeply upset to learn from my friends at PEOPLE FOR THE ETHICAL TREATMENT OF ANIMALS (PETA) about the extreme suffering of merino lambs and sheep in the Australian wool industry'


It sounds to me that while this should be pointed out to Bentton the post should go under Life in Australia .... :confused:

Since Benetton is owned by an Italian family, (but the headquarters are based in Luxemborg), maybe we can talk about its activities in Lifeinitaly. In the days of globalisation, every country is beginning to affect the other's inhabitants, whether it is people or animals.

On the topic of eating horses, Teresa has already said what I had to say and I agree with her a hundred percent. I am trying to go organic and vegetarian, with varying degrees of success.

Humans were never designed to be carnevors, they've become carnevors. In fact, we consume amounts of meat way beyond what the human body can deal with, and in turn the meat from these decomposing bodies ferment in our systems, especially if there is an overabundance, and guess what happens?? It becomes a toxic material and stored in the fat tissue until it decides to go crazy and form tissues that are abnormal and cancerous. In the United States people consume muchmore than their bodies actually need for energy--and most of the sources for sustainable energies come from grains not meats.

Humans were never designed to be carnevors, they've become carnevors. In fact, we consume amounts of meat way beyond what the human body can deal with, and in turn the meat from these decomposing bodies ferment in our systems, especially if there is an overabundance, and guess what happens?? It becomes a toxic material and stored in the fat tissue until it decides to go crazy and form tissues that are abnormal and cancerous. In the United States people consume muchmore than their bodies actually need for energy--and most of the sources for sustainable energies come from grains not meats.

In the United States people consume much more than their bodies actually need for energy.

Agreed - that's why some of them are so fat. I was in Florence at the weekend - you could tell the Americans a mile off - my goodness some of them were just immense wobbling blobs - I don't know how they ever got on a plane to get there. Maybe they have to get two seats - one for each cheek, like Pavarotti when he came to my cousin's restaurant.

Last time I was in the States, I bought (clothes in the U.S. are dirt cheap thanks to the strong euro and Asian/Mexican labor) a T-shirt that was a size 6xl (ie. XXXXXXL). It's big enough for me and my entire family to wear at the same time and comes down below my knees when I wear it on my own (I am over 6feet tall and "robusto" myself). I can't imagine how fat you'd have to be to wear it as a normal T-shirt.

We don't know about the hormone situation in Italy. It is illegal, but how do we really know they are not being used by farmers. I have my doubts sometimes.

Humans are not carnivores, they are omnivores, I just want to point that out.

Here in Italy in the supermarket you can find baby food in glass jars comprised of different meats: lamb, pork, horse, beef, chicken.

Every culture has its views on how to treat animals, that is for certain.
But things are changing now in the world...we are globalizing, so that is ALL the more reason why animals must be treated humanely. It is also the reason why we should reflect on why we even need to eat so much animal meat or even fish. Our human ancestors did not need a large diet of meat to survive. We modern humans have assumed we need to eat in extravagance and this just pushes the market to produce and slaughter more animals. There is so much waste. Humans today appear to be more greedy. Just think of all the people who eat fancy meals, do they really need to eat all of that? I eat very simple and do not waste. And, I have to truly say that the Americans waste food more than anyone I have ever seen.

Animals are being shipped vast distances to markets and often suffering in the process. I remember already back in the 1990's hearing about the numerous cargo flights out of the U.K., each day, 6 flights at least, each plane loaded up with 1000 head of young cattle, being flown to the slaughter houses in Belgium. Gruesome.

About Merino sheep....I do know that animals who are mass-shaved probably will endure pain and cuts etc. , for they are not treated with the respect they would get on a smaller operation. I noted when I was in the U.K., Wales, about how much care went into giving the sheep a good quality of life.

Our society today is comprised of people who for the most part are urbanites and are ignorant of the natural origins of food. They are so distanced from this natural fact that in the very end they simply do not care about how the meat was treated before it was placed on their dinner plate. Those who do care about where the food comes from ARE in the minority. Organic foods and humanely-raised and processed animal meat, basically are only affordable for the middle class. What happens to the working class, or the poor? (One further note: horsemeat in Italy is cheaper than beef and it is the reason some have told me why poor people buy it.

I have even seen books written for children showing where milk and eggs come from and what animals produces these as well as pointing out the natural life of these animals. I think there are children who live in the inner city and really never know about rural life and animal husbandry. Educating is good and necessary, and maybe these books should also be written for adults.

kfscala

Colci wrote: " Agreed - that's why some of them are so fat. I was in Florence at the weekend - you could tell the Americans a mile off - my goodness some of them were just immense wobbling blobs - I don't know how they ever got on a plane to get there. Maybe they have to get two seats - one for each cheek, like Pavarotti when he came to my cousin's restaurant. "

That is what I mean...some just eat more than they need.

[QUOTE=bubbles;2408]Since Benetton is owned by an Italian family, (but the headquarters are based in Luxemborg), maybe we can talk about its activities in Lifeinitaly. In the days of globalisation, every country is beginning to affect the other's inhabitants, whether it is people or animals.

This issue is not just an Australian problem because it happens OVER THERE far, far away from Italy. It is very much an Italian problem, too. Or, maybe I am even wrong on that. The headquarters are in Luxemburg. Consider that this Italian - Luxemburg company produces not only wool-processed goods for Italian society but for its export markets as well. So, in this sense globalization forces us to reconsider what we are doing when we desire some good...what are the costs? I.e. who might suffer? The unethical treatment of Merino sheep is an international dilemma isn't it? Both the company's interests and the consumer market's needs are exploiting the quality of life of animals on the other side of the world.

Kfscala

A very informative article about Pemarin and womens health can be found at this link:

http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/Premarin

This is a great post, I'm learning a lot. And regardless on where we all stand on the original topic, I think we can all agree that treating all our animals humanely-including those used for food is better for all of us.

The carnivore/omnivore arguement used to rage for days when I studied anthropology - most of the evidence is in our teeth and in our digestive systems. Our set of well defined molars is usually seen as evidence for a plant based diet however our digestive system contains plenty of enzymes designed soley for the digestion of meat. Not to mention the ongoing arguement of just what the appendix was for. Some say it is a holdover from when we ate more grain, however I have had professors argue that the appendix was used to help digest large amounts of raw meat (think wooly mammoth). In the end I feel our bodies are designed to extract nourishment from virtually any environment - which is one reason our species could leave the African savannas. One of the places our species reached was the Arctic circle.

Inuit populations are almost entirely carnivores for the obvious reason that there is no edible plant material for nearly 10 months of the year. Over thousands of years their physiology has adapted to a nearly all meat (and fat)diet. This is an advantage we have over many animal species and why humans occupy every inch of the globe - we can adapt to eat almost anything.

Sadly it is very true that my fellow Americans treat food much like the hedonistic Roman elite of the past - eating ad nauseum but without the vomitorium. I think that Americans don't eat too much meat - they eat too much of EVERYTHING:eek:

"Humans were never designed to be carnevors [sic]..."

Care to back up that statement with fact? Go look in a mirror and smile - see those pointy teeth beside the four incisors in the middle? They're called canines and occur only in carnivorous animals.

jim

Ciao,

It's been a while since I was here, great stuff.
I agree that we can agree (or at least that I do) that the basic point is that we need to treat all animals -- in fact, all life -- with respect and dignity.

And I also agree with Justin that our teeth and digestive systems seem to indicate that we evolved to eat just about anything that wasn't poisonous, and to extract nutrients from whatever we got.

Religion and culture play the biggest part in determining what we eat. Even food taboos have their bases in culture/health and so on, and what we think of as 'not food' is simply a product of our surroundings.

Can you imagine a Hindu walking through the meat section of a grocery store and seeing all those steaks? I imagine he/she would feel the same way I did seeing dogs ready to eat in China.

And in some large way, all of that is exactly what makes the world so wonderful. Instead of trying to convince each other to conform to our own cultural or personal or religious norms, maybe we should focus on treating everyone else, including the animals, as we would wish to be treated. The Golden Rule seems to apply cross-culturally, and across species.

Teresa