Ciao!

I tried this same concept under a different title, thuoght I'd beef it up a bit to see if it attracted more comments. I must admit, to most people probably "Globalization" isn't a fun topic. So... just a copy/paste of another post:
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I thought I'd ask a political question... this has the potential to get really controversial - just what I like!

I am reading a great book called Jihad vs. McWorld, about the potential dangers - and potential advantages - of the expanding globalization of the world. It has me thinking a lot about this, and I've been wondering lately about just how culture around the world will be affected.

On one hand I have hope that all countries/cultures will be able to hang onto the vital elements of their culture, the things that make them who they are. After all, the countries in Europe and the East have been easily doing this for centuries.. not taking into account the shifting borders always taking place through those same centuries, and ignoring other delicate points.

On the other hand, with the Internet, instant communcation, the windows we have into things happening literally around the world, and the way particularly American culture seems to be able to insinuate itself into others' daily lives, the danger seems to be that there will be a melding of cultures world wide.

That is of course one of the fears of those who oppose all forms of globalization.

I was wondering what others thought of the way the world is being 'westernized' or 'Americanized' (as some would say), and what dangers you all think this poses for cultures around the world.

Especially, of course, Italy.

Teresa

Caveat: "Culture" and "identity" are debatable concepts; culture as a concept has been discussed in other posts and may not really exist... but for the sake of argument let's assume that there is a definable national culture each country can claim.

Yes, Teresa, globalisation is indeed a threat to cultures and their individual identities, and yes the internet and all the other media have made the world smaller than ever before, the world does continue to shrink.

But the very fact that people like you or me are thinking, talking and discussing about it shows that there is an awareness of what is happening in people's minds the world over. This is always a good sign.

It is true that the externals have begun to look rather similar, that fashion trends seem to have become more uniform from all the way from Tokyo, to Milan and New York, but look closely and you will find that each of the peoples interpret these trends differently.

As Darwin put it, one of the essentials for survival and abundance is diversity, which could be as much a matter of the gene pool as the food or music....and human beings are in no hurry to be all the same everywhere.

Italian culture is too deep-seated in the psyche of the Italians, and while their externals will conform with a globalised world, at heart an Italian would always be an Italian, in their essential core values.;)

Convenience is a big killer of diversity, I know, but look at Macdonalds, which is surely American, but has Indian-based burgers in India (absolutely no beef or beef products!), and Asia-based porridges and soups you will find nowhere else in other than in various Asian countries. Just compare the Macdonalds menus from Milan, New York, New Delhi, Tokyo and Shanghai, and you will see how even Macdonalds has had to cater to local tastes: they have gone global, but they have been forced to think local!:)

Good thread Teresa , and well thought out points from bubbles...

Per piacere, let me point out a few things that may be relevant. I live in Milano and there's a street market just outside my house. I was just there a half an hour ago. There are those selling fish of every kind, vegetables, cheeses, breads, salumi, etc. There's another part where you can buy clothes of every kind - sweaters, stockings, scarves, coats, dresses, jeans, etc. There are also many other things like household/kitchen products.

But there are also those selling cheap chinese made crap, like poorly made kitchen utensils and clothes, and counterfeit "fashion" stuff like watches, bags, levis. etc. This is the reality of diversification - some african selling you a "Prada" bag made in china.

We have a Moroccan guy who comes around the neighborhood selling "fashion" stuff. He has Prada, Gucci, Levis, and all kinds of other "brand names", all at cut-rate prices. If you really look at the stuff you will see that it is NOT well made, obvious chinese knock-offs. When I confronted him with this, he pleaded ignorance, but people were buying this stuff like mad.

But it's really not much different from the US. When you go to Walmart and buy that $40 (chinese) DVD player, remember that some american loses his job.

jim

Oh, so you bring facts into the mix!! :)

I think you're right... I think the issue/problem/question of globalization and what it means is indeed something we all need to think about, in every country. WalMart and the items made in China are just as valid an aspect of it as any other, and those cheap items are making their way into every market.

I wonder, too, if the 'problem' of Globalization is really not quite the issue it appears from my perspective in the USA. It feels from here as though it's this giant, overpowering wave of change that's sweeping around the world, this Western-based market and way of thought that's taking over.

That could very well be my bias, this idea I have (one I don't conciously believe) that Western ideas overwhelm and take over all others... which if it were true would be very bad.

It is great to hear from others - from you in Milan, and from Bubbles talking about how even McDonald's (which I think is close to evil-incarnate :eek: ) - to hear that I might be overestimating the effect of Globalization on the world.

To ally my own fears I have often pointed to Europe as an example of how many many different cultures have lived next to each other for centuries and not been taken over by each other. Yes, they take ideas, food, clothing, etc., and whatever seems to fit their own culture, and they add or change or shift them to fit, and yet don't lose their own distinctiveness. This gives me hope.

And those Prada bags sold on the street corners... I must admit to being taken in by them once when I was young and stupid. The thing fell apart in about three months. Since that first visit I have noticed an increase in the number not only of those kinds of items, but also the African people who are selling them.

This is an indication of other issues, of course, and presents other questions.

Has anyone read Moises Naim's book Illicit?

Teresa

Chiaroscuro and Teresa, thanks for your interesting responses:)To look at globalization and its effect on culture, maybe I should include a sort of definition of culture, so we are on the same page.

Culture is a dynamic system of beliefs, norms, traditions, and values; the followers of which have a sense of belonging or identity. This system leads them to think, communicate, behave and define reality in a truly unique manner, as the systems differ from culture to culture, and the systems of no two cultures are the same.

Belonging to a specific origin has come to imply that an individual is completely enveloped by his or her culture, which includes all the aspects of life: from beliefs, aspirations, clothes, religion, art, language, and music to behavioral norms and even economic forms. A person of a particular culture is imagined to be have its indelible imprint, and is supposed to be determined by it.

And this definitely is the case with Italy, Italians and Italian culture.

I can assure you, chiaroscuro, that Miuccia Prada is not bothered by an African selling a knock off of one of her designs in Italy....designer knock offs have today proliferated all over the world, china-made goods are everywhere.

But you know the very fact that a Prada knock-off is available at the price that it is means that a person on the street is able to carry the fake. And the look of a person able to afford an original Prada is unmistakably different from someone carrying a fake....and of course, you just have to look inside a fake Prada or look at its fittings to know it is a fake:)

So Prada will remain Italian, no matter how many millions of Chinese manufacturers try to copy it. And a Prada is symbolic of what Italians stand for: aesthetics, quality and function married together in one object.

That will never change, just as I know Italians never will, (in good things or bad, but mostly, I hope, in good things);) !

"Is Italian culture in danger?" I think that this question must be rephrased because there is NOT one Italian culture here in Italy. Italy is comprised of many diverse Italian cultures. So the question should be asking instead: are the various Italian cultures within Italy in danger of being lost?

The answer to that question is I think in some ways yes. But I think it will not happen if the people in the various regional cultures, especially the younger generation, embrace or try to carry on some of the traditions from their regions, like dialect, food, literature, music, arts and crafts, and various cultural practices etc. The dialects are at risk for dying out if the younger generation does not learn them. And language/dialect communication is the heart of a culture. Culture appears to start with its language and way of thinking and this then progresses toward the development of other aspects of culture such as social values and norms, religion, social and legal institutions etc. What is not pleasant to think about is that globalization may wipe it out local cultures.


kfscala

Bubbles said:

"And the look of a person able to afford an original Prada is unmistakably different from someone carrying a fake...."

That's got to be one of the most vapid and shallow things I've ever read.

Yes, they have a "look" it's the empty eyes (if you can see them behind their ridiculous designer sunglasses) of someone who thinks that style is having someone else's name on their clothing.

Do you live in Italy? If so maybe you saw the program tuesday night about how the chinese are ripping Italy for BILLIONS by making counterfeit goods. It's not only those ridiculous designer fashions, 30% of our tomatoes come from china, but are disguised as Italian, and other foods too. Almost all that cheap stuff at the mercato comes from china, and it's poorly made so you will have to buy another soon.

"I can assure you, chiaroscuro, that Miuccia Prada is not bothered..."

Maybe la mocciosa prada isn't worried, because there are still plenty of stupid people in this world.

jim

Ouch!

I think I'll take this discussion back toward the question of whether "Italian culture" is in danger... and expand it a little and ask whether any/all cultures are in danger.

First, though, we do need to address the point Karin brought up. Yes, it's true that there is not ONE "Italian culture." But, as I've spoken of elsewhere on this Forum, there is definitely a distinct group of people who live in the region we call Italy, who speak Italian, and who all eat pasta. Okay, that last was a joke.

Seriously... how do we define culture? Culture is made up of many things, one of them is language, one is habitat, one is customs/traditions/beliefs/etc. I think none of us would deny that we identify ourselves and others in large part using terms of nationality/heritage, among other things.

So let's assume for the sake of argument that there is such a thing as "Italian" just as there is "American" or "German."

Given that, and understanding that all cultures change and shift and move over time, and that what looks like Italian now might not be recognizable as Italian by a person from 17th century Venice... it's still a valid question to ask:

Is Italian culture in danger?

And that gets us to a deeper question... if we allow that over time all cultures change, just as languages and styles change, over time, then the answer is probably no on a global scale.

But I can't believe that on a personal level.

I tend to believe that Globalization has the potential to be a threat to traditions, to older ways of doing things, to lifestyle and to ways of living. However, I also recognize that that's a value judgement made on my part that involves my belief about the value of particular cultures.

I couldn't care less whether the 'old' tradition of hot dogs at a baseball game stays or goes. I DO care, however, whether the old tradition of markets in Italian towns stays or goes - and they ARE threatened by Globalization.

But, you see... there is really no qualitative difference... only what I assign to each of those traditions as important.

Anyhow... there you go. My two cents worth!

Teresa