The bureaucracy in this country would drive anyone to drink!

My background : English, married to an Italian citizen for the last 27 years. Two sons (at present both living in our house in the UK), both births registered in Italy, and therefore they are Italian citizens, with voting rights etc. My wife and I moved over here in October last year to look after her recently widowed mother. My rights – nil!

Whilst I was something of an authority on the “Permesso di Soggiorno”, the powers that be changed all that just before we left, so all my careful research was for nulla! If I wanted to remain legal, after 90 days I would need a “Certificato di Residenza”, otherwise return to England, or effectively be illegal. Easy to obtain if you have a job. I don’t, and at present, don’t need or want a job. After numerous visits, ‘phone calls, begging, pleading, threats etc., it was eventually decided that as my marriage was registered in Firenze (my wife’s comune) I could have residency. (27 years of marriage – if I’d shot my wife I’d only get half that!! Residency is the least they can offer!).

After the celebrations of me being allowed to stay had finished, the next step was to register with the doctor. Today we tried. No, not without a work contract. I can have free Pronto Soccorso with my European Health Card (Great! If I get a virus, I’ll go to Accident and Emergency, deny someone who’s just been half killed in a road accident a doctor for half an hour, and get seen at 20x the cost of going to the local doctor!).

Am I bitter? Yes – too bloody right I am! My wife was unfortunate enough to get cancer, and but for the excellent treatment in the UK, would quite likely not have been here now some 5 years later. Cost? I would guess well over £500,000, probably nearer £1,000,000 for numerous operations, radiotherapy, outpatients, follow-up treatment. Did the UK authorities ask for a work contract? No. Did we have to pay? No. Do the Italian authorities seriously think an Englishman, coming from a country with a National Health Service the envy of the world, as a “health tourist”?

I spend money (transferred from England, not earnt over here therefore denying an Italian of a job) at the local shops. Everytime I return the trolley at the supermarket, some Eastern European beggar tries to take it to claim the euro deposit. Are they legal? Doubt it. Spend money in Italy – again I expect not – it’s either conned from the hard up shoppers or stolen.

If I can cope with the aggro and expense, I’ll get the car transferred to Italian plates – not encouraging so far – Toyota have asked me to complete a form, plus send copy documents I had already sent, so they can advise on the “feasibility” and cost of my request. How difficult is my request? I just need to know the technical specifications of a car they made, so I can pay the Italian government road tax!

I really love this country - the people, the food, culture – everything. It’s just the whole system seems set up to screw anyone playing by the rules.

Hi Mark

If feel your frustration all bureaucracies can drive you to drink and the Italian one happens to top the torta!

In respect to your certificate of residency. Did your mother in law not leave ownership of the house in your wife’s name? If so why are they not considering that factor as legal reason for issuing you a residency certificate?

Here are some Options or solutions: If you do not have claim to your mother-in-laws property than in order to get a certificate of residency you would have to purchase a property. For a job just go too your local real estate office and ask them to give you a job as a representing agent on commission or setup your own small Italian company and use your mother-in-laws address as residency when filing out your company business registration documents to achieve your goal. The costs would be less than playing the burecratic bullshit game they are putting you thru.
Salve
Frank

Hi Frank

Thanks for the reply - the residency is sorted, it's just the "Contratto di Lavoro" that always seems to be a sticking point! My suocera is still alive by the way - it's her pension that's so far has enabled us to eat so well!!

We are very fortunate in the sense that we have a free house (free as in lack of rent - not a Pub untied to a brewery as in the UK!!) to live in, and it's really a matter of being legal (in my case only to be fair) on the emploment front.With regard the job situation - thanks again for the info - I was half decided to set up a UK Ltd. company (£25 on the 'net!) and use that as proof of income!!

Thanks again Frank

Markymark,

Out of interest do you have a Codice Fiscale (Tessera Sanitaria), or has your Euro Health card been issued in the UK?
I have been on the receiving end of emergency medical treatment in Sardinia and it was similar to what you get in the UK, but from the doctors I know here I would prefer to be treated in the UK for any other kind of ailment!:(

Hi sardoman

Yes, I have a codice fiscale (from the Italian Embassy in the UK), and the Health Card was also issued in the UK.

I think what really blew it for me was using my UK passport as ID - if I'd have got a Carta Identita from the Anagrafe first, and produced that, maybe they would have processed it, I don't know. I'm sure we'll find a way around it, and it's not really a major problem if we don't (like you, I'd go back to England if I was ill enough to require extensive treatment). It's just annoying that you seem to get nowhere here if you play by the rules. I'm sure I'll learn.......................!

All this Italian style red tape and "jobsworth bureaucracy" has taken thousands of years to perfect. Italians have secret specialist bureaucrat training schools hidden away in the mountains, where they must study for at least twelve years before being released on the general public. These highly trained bureaucrats are placed strategically within the comune with the sole purpose of pissing everyone off.

They are an important and integral part of the Italian system and are there to make everyone appreciate how wonderful Italy is when they actually say "Yes". :D

Brilliant Aliena!!

The guy I saw had obviously taken the advanced 15 year course, as he was such a nice old boy, it was almost a pleasure to told to sod off!! :p

I can assure you that there is no advanced 15 year course in Italy. Your guy was, without doubt, Neapolitan and did the one month intensive crash course in order to obtain his "Cant be bothered" Diploma. Many years of in depth research has allowed me to discover the secret location of the Neapoliitan school of Bureaucracy (in fact, it's actually a University) which is on via Scugnizzo.. just opposite mio zio's house.

You have to pass the entrance examination in bad attitude and slouching before they will consider any applications for the new term which may start (if they can be bothered) in 2027. Most people easily manage to cheat their way in as they are usually related to the Principal.. or having an affair with his wife. :D

Aliena - I think it was my attitude that was wrong - there was a little old lady in front of us, and despite the screened off "sportelli" it was easy to hear what everyone else was saying to the receptionists. Instead of an English-type "Good Morning, I wonder if you can help me?", her opening greeting was "Now don't give me any trouble, I've had a bad day already!" , and then proceeded with her request!

After that, I think I was seen as a soft target..............:)

Ah I see! It's a great shame you haven't attended the super slick 3 day "How to charm a sour faced comune receptionist" course.

Seriously though, a similar type of thing happened to me at Ciampino a couple of years ago. I went to pick up my hire car only to be greeted by the bitter sister of your comune lady, who, thinking I was "just another irritating Brit" was determined to test my patience.. which is almost non existant anyway, by attempting to tell me in poor english and with a pinched patronising tone of voice that pisses everyone off, that she wouldn't give me the car I had booked and paid for as I had obviously made the error and the car I wanted was "too much more expensive for you to pay Madam" than the one I'd paid for.

She stated it was my fault as I had booked the wrong car even though I had all the proof in black and white to show otherwise and after my refusal to accept this, then went to her other collegues to snigger and make fun of me and the situation. When she eventually returned, she said that she would get me the car as "I make big favour for you" but would charge me an extra 200 euro.

I think it was about this time that I flipped my lid and broke out into rather vulgar and coarse Italian and told her straight that if she spoke to me with that tone of voice again or gave me any more of her bad assed attitude that I would pin her up against the wall and rip her bleached blond hair out by the roots.

I got my car.. and a sincere apology.

Should I enrol you on the next available course? :D

I can imagine how threatening violence against a woman who probably had perfect nails and recently applied make-up would work.
On one of our many trips to the Motorizzazione civile, we got talking to the doorman while waiting to be seen by an official. The doorman eventually took pity on us and let us into the hallowed private area and told us where the office of the official that we needed to speak to was. Having found it we knocked on the door, and without waiting for a reply, walked in. There we found the official with his feet up on the desk reading the newspaper. Embarrassment got the better of him and within a few minutes we were in possession of the papers we needed and left.

The moral to this story is...:confused:... well I suppose it is butter up the people at the bottom to get to the top, or just get lucky!

I think we could link this debate to the thread about negotiating in Italy as it involves understanding what motivates Italians.

http://my.lifeinitaly.com/showthread.php?t=2564

Sometimes I find that it is the opposite in that many non-Italians, especially the British, think they can do what they please, and I have seen how quickly the arrogant and ignorant ones can become obstructed by the system. Tuscany is very particular in this regard and i Toscani do not suffer fools gladly.

When dealing with Italian bureaucracy, it is absolutely crucial that you remain composed ands polite (even if you feel like throttling the person who is supposed to be providing a public service) at all times. You should also never assume or take anything for granted, especially when different rules and regulations apply across each of the regions. This situation is certainly not helped by the fact that the judicial system here is based on a very simple premise:

Ignorantia juris non excusat – ignorance of the law excuses no one

And since there is no official process of communicating or explaining these rules to the general public, it is your responsibility to gather the information, with little or no help from the bureaucrats. :D

CJ - I agree. We have had some successes with the beaurocracy, and all where we have managed to get on friendly terms with the officials. The rules in Italy are frequently "flexible", and a smile and a pleasant manner quite often helps them to be bent in the direction favourable to you.

I don't think the British believe they can do as they please, especially those coming to Italy - possibly some of the lager louts try, but in general most Brits accept the rules and play by them (when in Rome.........). Thank goodness the worst of the British expats tend to go to Spain, where they can have the hot weather, and still get a greasy "Full English" breakfast, Watneys beer, and speak English!

Ah.. that's obviously where I've been making my mistakes then. I've been going to the wrong country for the past 40 years!

Viva España.. here I come! :D

I don't think the British believe they can do as they please, especially those coming to Italy - possibly some of the lager louts try, but in general most Brits accept the rules and play by them (when in Rome.........). Thank goodness the worst of the British expats tend to go to Spain, where they can have the hot weather, and still get a greasy "Full English" breakfast, Watneys beer, and speak English!

In general most learn to adapt, but you would be surprised on how many do act in this way. I come across this sort of behaviour frequently in my line of work.

CJ - I'd be interested to know (I've looked at your site, and see that your company offers properties across the range of budgets) - is it the "nouveau riche" and monied Brits that demand the earth or all of them?

I'd very soon get a reputation where I live if I was rude - at the last figures produced (2006/2007) by the authorities, there were only 16 Brits in the entire Comune (I guess I'm number 17!) - I've not seen another English person since I arrived. Living in a small place, driving a distinctive car on UK plates, I'd be very wary of complaining about anything, however right I was, let alone annoying anyone in authority!

Ah.. that's obviously where I've been making my mistakes then. I've been going to the wrong country for the past 40 years!

Viva España.. here I come! :D

Yup Aliena! Spain's the place to be!

You can buy a lovely villa - the local authority will kindly oversee everything for you whilst it's built on illegal land, let you live in it for a year or so, then bulldoze it flat, all without charge! Even if you don't get lucky with the demolition, as a consolation prize they may appropriate half your garden, build a road through it, and present you with several hundred new neighbours in what was your back garden, and only charge you for the cost of the road!

All that and Sangria, that wonderful drink made from cheap red vinegar - sorry, I meant wine, and fruit juice - plus paella and English "cuisine" on your (prior to being bulldozed) doorstep - and all the lager louts you could wish for - Wow! I'm on the next plane!! See you out there!! :D

Ha! You think the Spanish authorities would mess with me? No, no.. my mamma is Neapolitan - she would soon sort them out! :D

I was rude to la signora di Roma because she was very rude to me for no reason. She knew what she was doing and just took it a little too far that day, simply because she assumed incorrectly that I couldn't understand what she had said to her collegues.

I agree in general that it's certainly not a good idea to lose your temper with people anywhere, especially in Italy, when you need something "official" doing - it's far easier (and more productive) to stay calm and pleasant.

CJ - I'd be interested to know (I've looked at your site, and see that your company offers properties across the range of budgets) - is it the "nouveau riche" and monied Brits that demand the earth or all of them?

I'd very soon get a reputation where I live if I was rude - at the last figures produced (2006/2007) by the authorities, there were only 16 Brits in the entire Comune (I guess I'm number 17!) - I've not seen another English person since I arrived. Living in a small place, driving a distinctive car on UK plates, I'd be very wary of complaining about anything, however right I was, let alone annoying anyone in authority!

It varies, although the "monied" brits as it were, can be more polite. In any case, you cannot stereotype because it really takes all sorts. From experience, it tends to be the minority who behave in such a manner, although as I have said, you would be surprised. Those who cannot adapt usually end up selling and move back to the UK.

I also had experience of this at the corporate level when I was working in industry, being based in Tuscany for 4 years. I have lost count of the number of times initiatives failed (not forgetting the money wasted) because head office was critical (arrogantly so) of the local management style and tried to impose a different system on our Italian colleagues.

Yup Aliena! Spain's the place to be!

You can buy a lovely villa - the local authority will kindly oversee everything for you whilst it's built on illegal land, let you live in it for a year or so, then bulldoze it flat, all without charge! Even if you don't get lucky with the demolition, as a consolation prize they may appropriate half your garden, build a road through it, and present you with several hundred new neighbours in what was your back garden, and only charge you for the cost of the road!

All that and Sangria, that wonderful drink made from cheap red vinegar - sorry, I meant wine, and fruit juice - plus paella and English "cuisine" on your (prior to being bulldozed) doorstep - and all the lager louts you could wish for - Wow! I'm on the next plane!! See you out there!! :D

No need to go to Spain when you can buy a property in Calabria that has even received planning permission and then find that the very council official who's signature appears on the planning permission was arrested for, among other things, "accaparramento di finanziamenti nell'ambito dell'attivita' edilizia".:D

It varies, although the "monied" brits as it were, can be more polite. In any case, you cannot stereotype because it really takes all sorts. From experience, it tends to be the minority who behave in such a manner, although as I have said, you would be surprised. Those who cannot adapt usually end up selling and move back to the UK.


It isn't just being able to adapt that makes people go back tho the UK. According to the Italian office of national statistics, who published a document last week, I live in the most expensive city of Italy... Cagliari!
I would tend to agree. Here I have to work twice as hard for less money than I made in the UK (taking the cost of living and the exchange rate into consideration). I have lived here for 4 years and I have come very close to going back on several occasions because life is easier back home. However, my wife is from here, my daughter feels at home here and so we remain.

Unfortunately too many Brits still feel they are part of an Empire, and behave as such. However, I think that Markymarks comments are not made because of any cultural differences, but more for the stupid bureaucracy that runs this country and which is applied to everyone regardless of race, religion, culture or sexual orientation.

I'm off my soapbox now! :D

Sardoman - I agree with your comments. Perhaps I should get off my soapbox too about the bureacracy - it is a pain, but some of it is EU law and applies to the UK too, it's just that Britain doesn't seem to apply it. Immigration into the UK is too easy, and Health and Social Services there are too easy to abuse - the Council Tax in West London is now £1600+ a year, as opposed to the 230 euros ICI (apologies if that's wrong - I daren't go and check or I'll lose what I've typed) that I think you said you pay here - a fair amount of the UK ICI goes to pay for services. I have sometimes felt more of a foreigner in London than I do here.

A sunny Sunday, a great lunch with Mamma, a stroll along the Lungomare with the beautiful people and just sitting on the balcony with the yachts sailing past in the distance makes me think it's all worth it. To top it all, my wife went to the doctor today to drop off some paperwork, and on hearing I'd had the "tummy bug" which has been going around, asked why I didn't go to him. When she explained, he said to go anyway, and when told that we would happily pay the fee, just shrugged it off as a daft suggestion. The people certainly make up for any difficulties the Red Tape puts in the way, and I have my Residency Certificate, which as Aliena rightly said is like a lottery win when you finally get it!

Anyway, I'm going to use knowledge gained from one of Paolo's joke posts for my next request - I'll find the Euro law that says I'm not entitled, copy it, and present it to the official, along with my British passport, and tell him it's absolutely forbidden to give me the documents I want :)

Ignorantia juris non excusat – ignorance of the law excuses no one

And since there is no official process of communicating or explaining these rules to the general public, it is your responsibility to gather the information, with little or no help from the bureaucrats. :D

Sound advice CJ - thanks - I've just done (yet) another search on the 'net and found some new info on the EU and UK Foreign Office sites (it wasn't there a couple of months ago), then searched on www.google.it (http://www.google.it) for the quoted documents in Italian (I'm now a tad wary of accepting what any "official" site says, unless it's an Italian Government webpage).

It seems by marriage to an Italian I am entitled to the same treatment as my wife is/was when the situation was reversed whilst we were in the UK. Quite possibly because of the low numbers of immigrants in our Comune, and probably even lower numbers married to Italians, I have been told politely "no" incorrectly on two different occasions. Also the fact that we are the opposite of the norm, in the sense that I'm a "house-husband" hasn't helped.

Now I just have to find a way of advising the relevant authorities without offending anyone...............:confused:

Sound advice CJ - thanks - I've just done (yet) another search on the 'net and found some new info on the EU and UK Foreign Office sites (it wasn't there a couple of months ago), then searched on www.google.it (http://www.google.it) for the quoted documents in Italian (I'm now a tad wary of accepting what any "official" site says, unless it's an Italian Government webpage).

It seems by marriage to an Italian I am entitled to the same treatment as my wife is/was when the situation was reversed whilst we were in the UK. Quite possibly because of the low numbers of immigrants in our Comune, and probably even lower numbers married to Italians, I have been told politely "no" incorrectly on two different occasions. Also the fact that we are the opposite of the norm, in the sense that I'm a "house-husband" hasn't helped.

Now I just have to find a way of advising the relevant authorities without offending anyone...............:confused:

Markymark, it is always best to run frequent searches to get updates, especially as far as Italian legislation is concerned, because it is always changing. This is something that many non-Italians don't understand. The other problem is that rules and regs seem to vary across each region and this doesn't help.

My mother is Italian and I am entitled, by way of ius sanguinis, to have Italian citizenship, as well as being a British citizen. Now her name on my birth certificate is Antonietta. However, the wise officials in the comune were she was born say no and refuse to register me because the birth certificate they have for her says Antonia and not Antonietta. Does it really matter? Of course there is a way around this snag, but I can't be bothered anymore.

Markymark, it is always best to run frequent searches to get updates, especially as far as Italian legislation is concerned, because it is always changing. This is something that many non-Italians don't understand. The other problem is that rules and regs seem to vary across each region and this doesn't help.

My mother is Italian and I am entitled, by way of ius sanguinis, to have Italian citizenship, as well as being a British citizen. Now her name on my birth certificate is Antonietta. However, the wise officials in the comune were she was born say no and refuse to register me because the birth certificate they have for her says Antonia and not Antonietta. Does it really matter? Of course there is a way around this snag, but I can't be bothered anymore.

Hi CJ
Your mother's name will actually be Antonia and she would have been baptised with that name. The name Antonietta means "little Antonia" and will be what she would have been called as a child. e.g. Rosa becomes Rosetta when a child, Anna becomes Annetta as a child, Maria becomes Marietta or even Mariuccia as a child & so on & so forth. Mi son spiegata? Cheers.:)