Hello all.

This is my first post on this forum.

I´m wondering why salaries for high-skilled (engineers, scientists, etc.) workers in Italy are so low ? Compared to other european countries, Italy has the lowest wages, far below Germany, France or the UK.

I already have some explanations about this but I would like to hear the opinions from the members of this group.

Ciao,
Flavio

Hi Flavio_C

There are a couple of threads on the forum (maybe you have seen them) where people have touched on this subject
http://my.lifeinitaly.com/showthread.php?t=1664
http://my.lifeinitaly.com/showthread.php?t=1649

Talking recently to some friends who own businesses here, one of the main problems is the paying of company taxes. For each full-time employee (on a full-time contract) the company must pay a sum equivalent to the salary in taxes to the government. So that means if you employ 20 people, you effectively have to pay 40 salaries. In addition the company has to pay all the usual benefits, such as sick pay and holiday pay, and quite often "trediciesimo". This is a bonus equivalent to one month's salary paid to workers usually around Christmas, or in the summer!
One way many companies get around this is by employing people on short term contracts. With workers on short term contracts the company pays only a small percentage in tax, and can get out of paying sick pay, holiday pay, and any bonus. Plus they don't pay the workers as much when on a short contract.

The job market, outside the major cities, is very slow too, so that people don't change jobs as much because the chances of getting another one (and better one) are low. Plus many Italians don't want to move far from their home towns/cities, which also goes against their chances of improving their job prospects.
Most people work longer hours in Italy too, and here in Sardinia many have second jobs (my wife has 3!!)

All this gives employers enormous leverage over the work force and they can essentially pay their workers what they like, no matter what their skills and qualifications are.

Despite being a member of G8, Italy's economy is not solid. The national debt is enormous and it hasn't developed a market strategy like other European nations. Although the official unemployment figures run at about 8%, the real figure is much higher since it is very difficult to claim unemployment benefit - the rumours about bureaucracy in Italy are true!

Apart from all this, Italy has a lot to offer, the food, the weather (in most places), the women / men, the lifestyle and so on, which all make up for the negative aspects in the work place! I think most ex-pats who have made the move to Italy haven't done it for work, but for other reasons.

Sardoman, thanks for your reply.

Yes, I read the other threads, they were very good discussions.

I will tell a short story about this subject...

I´m an italo-brasiliano and I have Italian relatives in northern Italy. They (wife, husband and daughter) run a small business in Milan and live in a very comfortable house 15 kilometers outside the city. Although they have an above-average standard of living, they have to work a lot since they have a lot of clients and no employees. When I was in Italy last time, I asked my cousin why he doesn´t have any employees to help with such amount of work in their office, and he responded that he would have to spend over 3000 euros/month to hire someone. At that moment I thought "well, it´s a very good salary for someone without university degree...". Of course, after I realized how the taxes for employers are high, it was easy to conclude that the 3000 euros would be translated in only 1500 for the worker, which is low for Milan cost of living.

In fact I´m not sure if the "Italian problem" is only related to labor policies or government inefficiency, but it seems that Italy chose to live only exploring its past and not developing its future. It´s like saying "...we are not as capable as the germans, english or the french...".

You see a lot of high-skilled workers, from Europe itself or from other parts of the world, who feels attracted to work in Germany, UK, US or Canada, but Italy is only mentioned if someone is looking into non-career related aspects. The salary in Italy for a engineer, for example, compared to the cost of living is ridiculous. Even Spain and Portugal are turning into more attractive places than Italy.

I think this situation is leading to a "leak" of professionals to other countries, which is something very dangerous for the future of Italy.

Well, apart from that, I really enjoy my Italian heritage and would love to visit Italy in a more regular basis... :)

PS: Sardo, are you from the UK ?

In fact I´m not sure if the "Italian problem" is only related to labor policies or government inefficiency, but it seems that Italy chose to live only exploring its past and not developing its future. It´s like saying "...we are not as capable as the germans, english or the french...".

I'm not convinced that Italians are saying that they are not as capable as the rest of Europe. My own region of Abruzzo has a wide range of employment with people existing in conditions from close to absolute poverty to extremely wealthy. Much of the region is agricultural and low wage, but in some areas, particularly the north there are many hi-tech industries paying good wages. For example the carbon fibre body shells for the Ferrari Enzo, the Porsche Carrera and the Pagani Zonda are all made in Abruzzo.

Even within agriculture there's a diversity of earnings. We have poor farmers and we have large businesses producing DOCG wines, and creating gourmet food. These businesses are competing head on with the rest of Europe and do very well at it, there's no shortage of talent or confidence and people earn in proportion to their success.

Where Italy seems to go wrong is the dead hand of the state in every day business. Some aspects of attempting to work in Italy are a farce. The state doesn't like independent businessmen and views anyone trying to create a business with suspicion. The bureaucracy is at times simply bizarre and very expensive to the individual. Italy clings to bureaucratic tradition that other countries discarded decades ago.

In the UK I can pay my taxes on-line, interact with just about every government office on-line, obtain copies of acts of parliament, Hansard (parliamentary reports) etc. In Italy to achieve anything involves having to take time off work to stand in a queue of people in a cold office, dealing with an official who thinks he is far more important than I am. Such individuals oten have other jobs in addition to their jo for the state and spend much of their time at work misusing the telephone, office equipment etc for their private business and they see people walking into the office as an interruption to their normal work day.

From my point of view, wages are low because of over-regulation and many people have a vested interest in maintaining a bureaucratic state, so getting change is very difficult. Italians (as individuals) are very enterprising, the Italian state doesn't understand enterprise at all and sees it as a threat. Visit a seminar on "enterprise" hosted by government and you will be bored to tears as a series of politicians talk without drawing breath for several hours. And in those hours you will learn nothing of value as the politician will have talked about philosophy, aspiration, heritage, the classics but won't have offered a single concrete proposal to do or to fund something.

Most people try to avoid any involvement with the state at any level. It's the only way to preserve sanity.

Is it true that Italy is the only country in Europe without a minimum wage?

no is not true....

A little bit off the topic, but...

Does anyone know how much a hotel receptionist working full-time in one of the major cities could expect for a monthly salary?

I guess is around 1200ۥ But consider also the good tips he get maybe can have much more...
The tips are black money - no taxes-.

Tips are not 100% tax free. The government knows that people in certain jobs earn tips and will tax you on them, so you have to declare some, but obviously nobody declares the full amount.

Flavio_c, sorry for the delay in answering you, but yes I'm from the UK and have been living in Italy for nearly 4 years now.

Sardoman where are you came from exactly?
I am living in London...
what about you!?!

I guess is around 1200ۥ But consider also the good tips he get maybe can have much more...
The tips are black money - no taxes-.

I'm a little bit confused. In US, a hotel receptionist is probably one of the few customer service workers that usually do not get tips. How exactly do you get tips working as a receptionist in Italy?

Also, are these jobs typically very hard to get (in other words, do you usually have to know someone, like many other jobs?)? I speak Italian moderatly well, along with several other languages, but with little customer service experience.

(Sorry for getting stuck on this topic, but any help is appreciated?) Thanks

in italy you need to know allways someone =)...

I knew a guy from an arabic country, a surgeon, he was new in the game but 800 euro a month was his salary, no joke:rolleyes:

Jacqueline the salary is 800 euros?! In black or with taxes?