:mad:
There was a time when I was growing up in Italy in the 60's and 70's that one could always talk ones way out of a parking ticket or a traffic violation. The thing that made post fascist Italy so wonderful was that people followed the spirit rather than the letter of the law...I remember one day we could not find a parking space near my friend's studio apartment on Via Margutta so at last in despair we parked perpendicular right on the sidewalk in front of the Babuino statue. Upon our return we found a warning in very flowery language advising us that although Rome welcomed tourists that we must be more careful about how we parked...and having said that it went on to wish us a most pleasant stay in Italy...

I have to say that this summer in June 2007, things were not that way. Perhaps my karma caught up with me or perhaps Italy has been so innundated by tourists that familiarity has bred contempt... I happened to be in Italy on the National Republic Day in Tirrenia near Marina di Pisa. The pay parking box had a burlap bag over it to allow people to park for free during the national holiday. No where was there a sign or posting that the free parking would end at 7AM the next day.

I found a ticket on my windshield about 9AM the next day and I dutifully mailed in a check for it to the Commune di Pisa because I was leaving town and had no time to pay it in person.

The check cleared and showed up cancelled in my monthly statement in July back in the USA. Then a month after that I got a notice from the rental car company that they were charging my credit card $30 for the same ticket. I argued and sent a copy of the cancelled check to the Commune Di Pisa but to date have heard nothing more...rather than free parking it turned into a small town revenue trap...

As if paying it twice wasn't bad enough, today 5 months later I got another letter from the car rental company saying they were charging my credit card another $30 for a moving violation that apparently unbeknownst to me, I had been given in Rome for driving in a lane that was reserved for buses somewhere on Via Nazionale at the entrance to Piazza della Republica.

I must say that considering that driving in Rome was like Pod Racing or herding sheep in which the only way one could survive was to go wherever there was an opening regardless of lanes, I am amazed that I was singled out for such a moving violation.

I am left wondering if the traffic police are picking on rental cars figuring that tourists will be long gone and unable to argue the ticket in court.

As much as I love Italy, I must say that this experience really pisses me off!!! I am coming to the conclusion that traffic congestion, parking and the driving experience are becoming no fun anywhere on the planet...

BA

Brian, I regret to tell you that you have been the victim of nothing more than driving in a European city in the 21st century. I have very little experience of driving in Rome, but what you describe is identical to what has happened in London.

I was a London policeman for nearly 18 years before moving to Sardinia. The number of cars in London was growing at an alarming rate, and the subsequent parking problems led to the introduction of vehicle removals and wheel clamping about 20 years ago. In the first year of operation the London Borough of Westminster made over a million pounds profit. Since then fixed speed traps, bus lane cameras and a congestion charge have been introduced.
About 10 years ago most traffic enforcement laws were decriminalized so that the local authorities became responsible for administering them, and as they benefit from the fines they issue any latitude that was previously given to drivers has gone.

Without wishing to sound too cynical, most major cities in Europe have cottoned on to this method of making money from the fine upstanding people who have elected them to office. :mad:

Thanks Sardoman,
it must have been a camera because I sure don't remember any policeman!

BA

Today in the mail I received 4 more traffic tickets of which I had been completely unaware of at the time they were purported to have occurred which the rental car company had billed to my credit card, this time from the Commune Di Firenze...it took five months to send me the notice and there was no documentation as to what they were for...all of the millions of bad drivers there, why are they singling me out...I can't even defend myself from here in California and if you read the fine print from the rental car company it says for documentation of the violations I must contact the local traffic authority...right!!! What a scam! So far this has cost me $210...I was only there two weeks?! That's more tickets than I have received in the last 20 years in America...and my son and mother can attest to how carefully I was driving...anyone care to place any bets on whether I will receive any more tickets? Let's see... after Florence we drove to Monteregioni then Siena, then Montalcino, then back to Rome and to Ostia before finally departing...che bruta fine!

Brian, don't quote me on this, but I seem to remember that a fine can only be considered legal and due in Italy if you receive notice of it with six months (180 days). I know it doesn't help with the fines you have already received, but this knowledge may come in useful should you receive any more tickets from your trip. I received an 'unknown' fine in Naples (of all places!!) and the rental company informed me they were going to charge my card 50 euros, so I called the rental company and politely told them to get lost. I then called the card company and told them that under no circumstances were they to entertain any such charge, if one was presented for payment. I never heard another thing about it.

Brian,
You seem to have received more than your fair share of tickets. I read on another site that the Italian authorities have one calendar year in which to inform non-residents of a traffic violation.
I don't know how good your Italian is but here is the link to the legislation page of the website of the Automobile Club d'Italia. I hope it helps to tell you what your legal position is. http://www.aci.it/index.php?id=842

Good luck

Dear Sirs at EMO (European Municipality Outsourcing),

I lived in Italy from 1954 until 1966 and from 1970 to 1973 and during all those years I never received a traffic violation or parking ticket. Once I received a very polite warning in Rome for illegal parking but not even a fine.

Six months ago I took my 90 year old mother, who had not been back to Italy in 36 years and my 20 year old son who had never been to Italy for a two week vacation. We had a wonderful trip and saw 26 old friends all together.

In Pisa on the national holiday of the Republic, I parked in front of our hotel and there was a burlap bag over the parking pay box due to holiday. No where did it say that at 7AM the next day the holiday would be over and I received a parking ticket. I paid it by check in the mail and 5 months later I received a bill to my credit card for the same ticket. As I am over 10,000 miles away I decided not to contest this.

Then I received 4 tickets from the Comune Di Firenze: 1165836/T/2007, 1165828/T/2007, P-2007-B-01075883, P-2007-B-01075850 and today two more P058/AF5264 and P058/AF5262 as well as one from the Comune Di Roma n.13071056462. All seven of these were for the same violation of driving in a lane reserved for buses and all were registered by hidden camera. I have paid all these tickets immediately and the one from Pisa twice without protest but I must tell you that I consider this a form of robbery and it leaves me with no respect for the law. The hidden cameras are like the speed traps that little towns of a few thousand inhabitants use for revenue in isolated places in the Mid West or southern states of the USA as you have seen in movies. You should post large signs with large letters warning drivers of the bus lanes and the amount of the fine like they do in the USA. The purpose of traffic rules is for public safety not to raise revenue. The police are supposed to serve the public to our benefit not theirs!!!

I consider myself a person of greater than average intelligence and I have not received a ticket in my own country in over six years although I drive 35,000 miles per year. I do not agree that the signs clearly mark that certain lanes are reserved for buses and in fact I was completely unaware that I had committed any infractions until I received these tickets 6 months later. This is no way to welcome tourists although your economy depends on tourism. I have a deep love for Italy but I must tell you that I am not inclined to drive in Italy again now that I understand what a greedy money machine has been created at the expense of unsuspecting tourists. This is no way to welcome foreigners who come to your country to gain cultural experience and personal growth.

Sincerely,

Brian H. Appleton

Brian
I know this doesn't help you situation, but in the UK where there are bus lanes there are some random cameras. However, the buses are also fitted with them so you only have to be in a bus lane with a bus behind you to fall foul of the law.

The problem is that the bus lanes are not operative for 24 hours a day, so you can drive in them quite legally on some occasions, but become the victim of an overzealous bus driver. Unless you know the route well how are you to know that the bus lane was/wasn't in operation at that time!

Let's hope this is the last you hear of these!

OK are you guys ready for this? I got ticket # 9 in the mail today, this time from Livorno...same thing...driving in a bus lane...I am trying so hard not to be angry about this...I was only there in Italy for two weeks last summer for the sake of Christ...either I am really stupid and blind or there are no damn signs marking these bus lanes...madonna orsa!!! I'm up to $600 now... %@##**&&%$!***:eek:

BA

Brian - my heart goes out to you! It would be difficult to get as many tickets as you have if you had tried to. But now I'm worried! I drove my car off the motorail in Livorno (only about 25km from here), and by my own admission made some dreadful, highly illegal I'm sure, manouvers to get on the right road! Maybe the British plates will save me...................

I don't know Marky, my plates were Italian. According to Sardoman who is a retired Bobby, they even have cameras on the front of the buses to take pictures of your plates...O dio!

Good Luck,

Brian

5.1.2008

Carissimi Sig.ri Polizia Municipali Di Livorno,

Io ho visuto a Livorno da 1954 a 1966 quando ero bambino, li a Via Fiume propio d’ avanti a la Questura in quell’ periodo.

Siamo venuti questo estate a riverdere tutti i vecchi posti da mia fanciulezza con la mia mamma di 90 anni e dovevo portarla in machine per forza. Si come l’ Italiano non e la mia prima lingua non ho miga visto cartelli dove cera scritto che certe corsie erano riservati per le autobus.

L’ultima volta che ho guidato in Italia dieci anni fa non avevano tutti queste machine segreti per fotografare i guidatori. Dovete credere con la mia anciana mama ed anche i miei figli a bordo che avevo guidato bene e tranquillo.

Mi dispiace che non ho capito tutte le lege per il circulazione del traffico. Ma purtropo, ho scoperto che Italia non e ancora molto simpatica per i turisti e i stranieri. Forse siamo tropi.

In somma ho ricevuto se controvenzione a Firenze, ed uno a Roma per la stesa cosa e non avevo l’idea per cinque mesi dopo che avevo fatto qualche cosa contro le legge.

Io penso che dovete scrivere in lettere piu grande ed anche in Inglese, Tedesco e Francese i cartelli per questi corsie riservati per le autobus ed anche il orario per quando e prohibito. Altrimenti noi poveri stranieri come possiamo capire che cosa dobiammo fare nel vostro paese?

Io, negli ultime sette anni in America non ho ricevuto nianche uno controvenzione, nianche per parchegiare vietato. Avevo pensato che ero capace di capire l’Italiano abastanza bene per guidare in Italia e ho sempre guidato senza problemi fina ora ogni volta che venivo in Italia nel passato. Ma come e possible che otto volte in due settimani non avevo capito che guidavo nelle corsie riservati per autobus. Non sono un imbecile complettamente!!! Dove sono i cartelli?

Questo non sembra la giustizia, non sembra lege per il bene della pubblica, sembra una maniere di guadaniare soldi per il vostro tessorio.

La prossima volta che vengo in Italia non guido, vabene? Vado in autobus…

Distinti Saluti,

Brian H. Appleton

According to my wife there is some kind of illegal clear adhesive reflective tape that criminals use to put over the license plates which people don't see but when the camera takes a photo it makes glare on the film so it can't be read! I am going to have to look into that before my next trip...LOL

According to my wife there is some kind of illegal clear adhesive reflective tape that criminals use to put over the license plates which people don't see but when the camera takes a photo it makes glare on the film so it can't be read! I am going to have to look into that before my next trip...LOL


Yes that tape exists, but it only works to some extent, and especially when the cameras are fitted with a flash (as most of the old ones were). The new type of cameras work on infra red and so can read the plates day or night without the use of a flash.

Have you tried contacting the hire company with regards to all these tickets, because I can't believe that you have received so many, and if you have, how many other tourists have received them?

I've heard of this tape too - it's illegal of course (UK at least), and as sardoman says, quite often doesn't work. At least in Italy you are limited to bus lane cameras - the UK, with all its' freedoms, is one of the most video'ed in the world. In London,you are likely to be caught on 43 different cameras on an average day! Plus the bus lane cameras, speed cameras, cameras on buses to monitor bus lanes, Police video car surveillance..................... and people still complain Italy is a police state!!

Brian, however unfair these tickets maybe, the delay is due to the car being a hire car (I've worked for truck/car rental companies) - the ticket gets sent to registered/head office, they then try to work out where that car was at the time, send it on to the local branch (getting the picture?), they then, when they can be bothered, search through their records, find the relevant rental agreement, and send the whole lot back to HQ, who then, in turn, report to the authorities!!

I really hope you get no more unpleasant surprises in the post.............

Good info. Thanks again Sardoman!

cheers and all the best,

Brian A.

Thanks for your sympathy Marky and good info.

cheers and all the best,

Brian A.

Hi Brian
I'd only just seen your thread after reading USItalian's post on Italian Traffic Tickets. I know this comes a little late but I was just wondering if you'd been taken in by a scam - of course, as with most things Italian, ie. complicated, it's hard to tell who the scammer really is. Won't be surprised if everyone gets a little cut. It is unusual that you should be getting so many tickets after you've paid the first.

The reason I'm posting this is that I'd like to share with you the experience of a friend of mine. During his visit to Italy, he had a rental car which he took everywhere. Unlike you, he's quite the speed demon and coming from a country where everything is highly regulated, he thought he was in heaven cos in Italy the rules are here to be broken. I'd say he had plenty of pleasure in breaking nearly every traffic violation. Basically, he was trying to do as the Romans when in Rome.

He nearly got away, except that 6 months later he got a ticket for speeding in the mail. He was thinking of ignoring it but since he always uses the same car rental company everytime he travels (he thought they'd be able to track him down the next time he rented and make him pay anyway), and because he was planning on coming back to Italy again, he decided to own up and pay up. So he sent the ticket to us and asked my husband to settle it for him.

My husband checked with a friend who's a policeman and asked him how he can go about paying it because the fine is from another commune. The friend shrugged his shoulders and said something like, oh, it's complicated (that word again)because you'll have to go to that commune, etc, etc. Then he said, your friend is a foreigner right? Why bother paying? So my husband chucked the ticket and that was that.

That was 4 years ago, and my friend has been back to Italy twice with no trouble. Actually, he picked up another ticket on his second visit and never paid up as well.

USItalian, I'm not suggesting you don't pay up, I just thought I'd share with you my friend's experience. The situation could vary with commune and it could be that the commune where he committed the violation just couldn't be bothered to pursue the matter. I'm just wondering if you do pay up if you won't be opening up a can of worms, as in Brian's case, and open yourself to more tickets in the mail.

Pescarese

My husband checked with a friend who's a policeman and asked him how he can go about paying it because the fine is from another commune. The friend shrugged his shoulders and said something like, oh, it's complicated (that word again)because you'll have to go to that commune, etc, etc. Then he said, your friend is a foreigner right? Why bother paying? So my husband chucked the ticket and that was that.

That was 4 years ago, and my friend has been back to Italy twice with no trouble. Actually, he picked up another ticket on his second visit and never paid up as well.

USItalian, I'm not suggesting you don't pay up, I just thought I'd share with you my friend's experience. The situation could vary with commune and it could be that the commune where he committed the violation just couldn't be bothered to pursue the matter. I'm just wondering if you do pay up if you won't be opening up a can of worms, as in Brian's case, and open yourself to more tickets in the mail.
I'd like to put my two cents' worth in this discussion, not only because I have gotten quite a few traffic tickets myself, but also because I briefly worked in an Italian Consular office and, among other chores, had to serve notices to the local residents (both Italian and foreign) who got ticketed during their trips to Italy. So I have acquired some knowledge on the matter.

First of all, a traffic ticket issued to a driver residing abroad must be served within 360 days. Given the slow pace with which many "Municipal Police" offices seem to work, the low efficiency of Italian mail and the fact that the ticket gets served first to the registered owner of the vehicle, and in the very frequent case that the car was a rented one the ticket has to be served again, this time to the driver, in most cases the ticket (which MUST be served by registered mail) never reaches its addressee before one year from its issuance.

Even if the ticket gets to be served to the driver within 360 days, and no payment is made within 60 days from the service date, the issuing authority must take action to recover the due fines (plus fees and interest, etc.) within five years. If no action is taken, then no fine is due anymore.

To further complicate the matter, a couple of recent rulings by Italian courts shortened the time limit for the recovery of traffic fines from five to two years, and voided all traffic tickets lacking the signature of the issuing officer and of the processing officer as well. As an immediate consequence, thousands of traffic tickets were rendered null and void, and in some cases people who paid their traffic tickets in time could ask city administrations for their money back (plus interest).

So, as you can see, the whole system is a mess...

Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:58:41 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brian Appleton" <iranianb@sbcglobal.net> Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
Subject: Re: I: già 156966; Fwd: Re: R: ref fattura 00018376/2007 data 10/09/2007
To: Customerserviceitaly@europcar.com
I would just like to make a kindly suggestion that you please warn American drivers about the hidden cameras and the lanes reserved for buses often only during certian times of the day...it is not fair to expect people for whom Italian is a second language at best and who have not driven lately in Italy to know all these things. So far driving your car only two weeks in Italy has cost me over $600 in fines and 8 were for driving in lanes reserved for buses which I did not know about and 1 was for a parking violation which I ended up paying twice, once to your company and once directly to the Commune Di Pisa before they even notified you. The parking meter box had been covered the day before due to national Republic Day and then was removed at 7AM the next morning when the holiday was over...again how is a foreigner supposed to know these things...I hope that one day if you are driving in the USA as a visitor that our policemen will treat you more kindly...I drove in Italy many times in years past before you joined the European Economiuc Union and never received a single traffic violation.

I am very unhappy about this situation and do not intend to drive in Italy again. I would have happily used trains and public transportation but I was accompanying my 89 year old mother who loves Italy probably on her last trip to Italy.

I am not asking about your rules and regulations, I am asking where your famous Italian humanity has gone?

Please remove me from yor Europe Car e-mailing list,

Brian H. Appleton



Customerserviceitaly@europcar.com wrote:

Re: administrative fee for handling of traffic violation reports: invoice 00018376/2007.

Dear Client,

Europcar receives reports on violations raised on its cars and it is responsible for furnishing to the Authorities the personal data of the Renter at time of the violation, to whom the fine must be re-addressed; if this information is not forwarded to the Authorities, Europcar will be held responsible for the payment of the fine as it is the owner of the vehicle.

By handling these reports, there is an administrative fee payable by the Client, as foreseen in article 3/C of the General Conditions of the Rental Agreement signed by you, which states:

The Client undertakes:
- to directly arrange to pay any fines raised against the hired vehicle during the period of the rental and to refund the Lessor any costs incurred in this respect, in addition to any payments made by the Lessor and the administrative charges quantified in the information sheets available at rental offices;”

In consideration of the above, we wish to point out the following:

Europcar receives from the Authorities the paperwork of the reports, excepting for the City Councils of Bologna, Florence and Rome, for which the request is received via data transmission on which is indicated only the number of the report, the date and time of the violation, but no information on the type of violation committed;

Europcar transmits to the Authorities the information on the Renter and issues an invoice to the same Renter, for the administrative fee, and attaches to the invoice a copy of the paperwork received from the Authorities. Of course for the three City Councils of Bologna , Florence and Rome , it is not possible to furnish copy of the paperwork report, but the information regarding the violation are indicated in the invoice itself.

The information that Europcar transmits to the Renter with its invoice is only for Renter’s knowledge, as justification of the administrative fee charged. In fact the Authorities, after receiving all requested information from Europcar, will notify the Client directly for each and every report drawn up (including those for Bologna , Florence and Rome ).

Only upon receipt of the report, duly re-addressed by the Authorities to the Driver, the Driver can settle the payment of the fine or else dispute it directly with the Authorities, but never before he receives the fine directly. The payment request which the Driver will receive directly in his name from the Authorities, will contain all information regarding the method of payment;

Again, for any dispute on the fine, the Driver must contact the Authority who issued the fine, NOT EUROPCAR.

6. Furthermore the administrative fee WILL NOT BE CANCELLED if there is a dispute on the violation, unless there is a clear error on behalf of Europcar.

7. FOR ANY CLARIFICATION REGARDING THE REPORT, IT MUST BE DONE EXCLUSIVELY WITH THE ISSUING AUTHORITY.

Yours sincerely,
Customer Service Italy
Europcar Italia SpA

Thanks guys but I too intend to return to Italy despite my protestations and live to drive another day and I do not want a huge nasty whopping surprise of a fine with penalties and interest and eventually effecting my US driving record waiting for me...I don't think Italians have a monopoly on stupid bureaucracy...that was invented by the Chinese thousands of years ago...Vi rende conto? They had Civil Service exams 1000 BC. Who knows maybe Marco Polo brought back bureaucracy along with pasta and gun powder...of course the ancient Romans were good at it too...

anyway I am not really as mad as I sound about this...I am just trying to give the police and the bureaucrats a hard time because I want to get something for my money...LOL

BTW please visit my new website and learn about my first book: "Tales From The Underground" at www.zirzameen.com about my hidden life in Iran in the 1970's

Thanks for all the sympathy...voi siete tutti simpaticissimi...non vi pare che ho imparato un po come si fa a fare l' Italiano dopo 13 anni in Italia?

tante cose da,

Brian Appleton

Two more tickets came in mail today from Municipality of Pisa by hidden cameras for driving in bus lanes again...I remember that day...it was raining cats and dogs and it was our only chance to show my son the leaning tower...there was no place at all to park...what has this world come to anyway? It is now 11 tickets for 14 days in Italy...accidenti!

BA

I forgot to mention that it now costs $25 per person to climb the leaning tower and you have to wait for several hours for your turn. Every museum like the Uffizi,you have to book tickets on the internet for a specific date and time or you will not be able to get in...we may have more of everything in today's world, in fact too much of everything esp debts but the quality of life? What about that?

BA

Dear Europcar,

I would suggest that although the information about "ZTL areas" may be available at your counters that you hand it to the customer along with his contract. I am still receiving tickets even up to now 8 months after my visit and so far it is 11 tickets and over US$1,000.00

I have no incentive to drive in Italy again.


sincerely,

Brian Appleton
Customerserviceitaly@europcar.com wrote:
Dear Customer,

First of all we sincerely apologise for the delay in replying to you.

We wish to thank you for pointing out the problems relevant to your rental, and we are very sorry for the inconveniences you found in Italy during your trip. We just would like to let you know that in all Europcar Desks there are the information regarding the ZTL area.(please see attachment)

We remain at your full disposal for any further explanation you may need.


Kind Regards,

Customer Service Italy
Europcar Italia S.p.A.

The old walled town of Cagliari is a ZTL between 0000-0800 hours. As there are only a handful of ways in and out the comune put cameras on the access streets to capture offending vehicles. There was an article in the local paper recently that said that 15,000 tickets had been issued in the first 3 months, now that's 10% of the population of Cagliari and over 150 tickets a day.
Brian, don't tempt fate by coming here!

Thanks for the warning! Usually I head for the top end of Sadegna anyway!

cheers,

BA

Geez! I want to rent a car in Vicenza to drive around Trentino Alto Adige, tu sai, Cortina, Bolzano, Trento etc. etc. Actually use to drive there to ski 20+ anni fa in my own car. Would also go to Venezia, Verona, Milano from Vicenza anche in macchina.

So che dice? Should I rent a car cosi o no? Adesso dopo di leggere tutto questo ho paura.

I guess it's like going to Vegas, you figure the gambling losses are the cost of the entertainment...but joking aside, just watch out for the bus lanes...look for the signage, I sure didn't see any...

BA

Che succede con the bus lanes?!

they have hidden cameras covering them, sometimes hidden cameras even on the buses themselves according to Sardoman

Brian - if it's any consolation, the cameras hidden on buses are, I believe, only found in the UK at the moment. Whatever you do, don't drive in London!!!:)

Oh my gosh folks,
I don't believe it. My complaints about traffic tickets has had more hits and more remarks than any of my high brow articles and nostalgic stories that I have submitted to my life in Italy magazine...a distant second is the one I wrote about wild food in Italy...I guess I need to write one with the word sex in the title to get the most viewers...LOL:D

ciao ciao,

Brian
www.zirzameen.com

Brian - keep up the nostalgic and high brow articles - please try to bring me up to your level rather than be dragged down to mine! I always enjoy your posts which are entertaining and educational, but just don't ask to borrow my car if you come to visit!;)

Thanks Marky,
I wouldn't do that to you ;)

BA