Given the madness that has been going on all over Italy this fall, I wanted to know what everyone thinks about this topic? Are the Italians (as in those politicians) heading towards xenocentricism? Is it ever right to deport a foreigner from your country who threatens national safety? What about those ever-present gypsies, that seem to cause a lot of crime in what is generally considered a country with little to no street crime?

For more information, read this article: http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/11/04/europe/EU-GEN-Italy-Immigrants-Tension.php

Thanks in advance for your responses.

Laura
You should also post what caused the reaction: A woman who was raped and beaten near a Gypsy camp by a Romanian died last Thursday night.
I was in Italy when this happened and unfortunately it is not the first act of violence that ever happend caused by an immigrant. There are many more act of violence caused mainly by Romanian, Slavi, and Albanians as far as I know but I do not have statistics at this time but as far as I know while gypsies might pick your pocket seldom acts of extreme violence ( unlike this group of immigrants) .

Given the madness that has been going on all over Italy this fall, I wanted to know what everyone thinks about this topic? Are the Italians (as in those politicians) heading towards xenocentricism? Is it ever right to deport a foreigner from your country who threatens national safety? What about those ever-present gypsies, that seem to cause a lot of crime in what is generally considered a country with little to no street crime?

For more information, read this article: http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/11/04/europe/EU-GEN-Italy-Immigrants-Tension.php

Thanks in advance for your responses.

I am not an Italian, but as a global citizen, I can say that extremes are almost always harmful.

Yes, if there are immigrants in a country perpetrating violent crimes, the country has full rights to send them back to their native country, or try them according to prevailing laws. Those with criminal records should be sent back. There is also the question as to how people with criminal records managed to emigrate in the first place....was the immigration itself legal?

That, I guess, opens a whole new can of worms:confused:

Expelling everyone regardless of whether they are honest, legally emigrated people or not, is a negative decision. Only those people need to be identified and expelled who are causing all the trouble, a blanket decree in this case can have disastrous results.

Paolo: Sorry for not including what triggered this... I thought the article I linked would relay this message to those who were reading this. And I'm fully aware of the situation, as a result of spending a lot of time living in Milan this summer. I just thought I'd open the conversation out to everyone on this board to see what their thoughts are. I didn't have time earlier to then express my own opinion, which is thus what I am doing right now. I hate this is happening, but completely agree that desperate times calls for desperate measures -- and if this means deportation of people (from any group) and/or substantial punishment through jailing, etc. who are a threat to national security, then so be it. Is it ever right to deport a whole group of people as a result of a group's actions? OF COURSE NOT.

Regarding gypsies (from all of those countries listed), I can testify that they do MORE than just try to steal your purse/money. I also spent some time living in Monza (suburb of Milano) this summer, and on several occasions, witnessed the police arresting several gypsy women who were trying to physically attack people (with knives, nonetheless) going grocery shopping in the car park of the supermarket. I've also been verbally harassed by them for not giving them money while waiting for the bus or train... it's madness.

Not to mention that this summer (again in Milan), I also got my cell phone stolen (right out of my hands!) from one of said ethnic groups below....... but does that make every single person from that ethnic group bad? NO. I believe that is stereotyping and oh so very wrong.

I don't know what is the best way to execute this new decision: maybe Italy needs to toughen up on their immigration policy and not let just ANYONE into their country (ie. check their criminal background before they are granted permission to immigrate)... but then again, it will become too much like the U.S.'s foreign policy and treatment of immigrants in general, both legal and illegal, which I'm not a fan of either. Immigrants in both countries make up a large portion of the blue collar/working class, and do many of the jobs the dominant/host country would rather not do. And, it would make it more difficult for Americans (such as myself) to immigrate there in the future. Hmmmmm...

Anyone else have any insights to share?

:eek:

One more thing: wasn't Italy in the process of granting only a certain number of immigrants from the EU/outside of the EU into their country per year?

Well - I just returned from Italy last night so I don't have much time.
nyway the problem here is that Italy does not offer many opportunities to the immigrant. Salaries are quite low and job opportunities are not much unless you are willing to go clean houses or be an under-paid muratore ( construction worker ). So people come in the country they do not find work and turn to crime. By the way the law proposal aimed to send back the people without a job ( from what I heard on TV) anybody who had a job could stay in Italy.

There have been some interesting comments made here.
Lauretta83, the article you quote is one of many that have appeared in the European press these last few days. There seems to be some hysteria about the level of crime committed by foreigners in Italy at the moment. Part of the problem is the development of the European Union, let me explain.

In 1985 five European nations (Belgium, France, West Germany, Luxembourg and the Netherlands) signed the Schengen Agreement, which allows for the abolition of systematic border controls between the participating countries. Since then a total of 30 countries, including most European Union states, have signed up to it. Italy joined in November 1990. This effectively means that you can travel from one side of Europe to the other without ever being challenged.
As the EU accepts more and more countries to join, and now economically poor countries from Eastern Europe, you cannot blame their citizens for moving to other countries where they hope to make a better life for themselves.

Unfortunately, most of these people are unskilled and stand next to no chance of finding work. Italy in particular has quite strict rules concerning the claiming of social benefits, which leads to these people living in poverty with little hope of ever getting out of it. And this in turn leads to the problems being experienced at the present.

The call by politicians and others to have all these people deported is simply ridiculous and aimed at winning over public opinion. The laws of the country plus the European Convention on Human Rights prevents this kind of action from taking place.
Refusing entry to people who have a criminal record might seem nice, but just because someone may have shoplifted once doesn't make them a bad citizen. And anyway, checks like this are carried out when you apply for a visa; but you have to remember that the people we are talking about come from countries within the EU. And as of last April there is no longer the need to have a resident's permit if you come from an EU country, so there is even less control on the movement of people.

Lauretta83 mentions that Italy was granting only a certain number of immigrants. This is true, but it was a policy introduced by the previous government to encourage the immigration of about 2.5 million people as the native population is in serious decline! Ironically the same politicians, who are now in opposition, are calling for the closure of national borders.

Britian hasn't signed the Schengen Agreement, nor has it joined the single European currency, and as such retains a great deal of control over itself. The problems being experienced in Italy are being felt in other European nations, and are going to be very difficult for the governments to deal with as they have lost control over their own countries. And while many pro-Europeans deny it there is a loss of national identity, and people need to feel a sense of heritage and belonging.
The situation is going to get much worse before it gets better.

Sardoman you speak a great deal of sense in your posts. I do not however, agree with one point you make.

People are not always driven to crime through poverty - if they were, more than 90% of the worlds population would be criminals - criminals (generally) are driven to crime through having a criminal mentality in the first place.

Sardoman you speak a great deal of sense in your posts. I do not however, agree with one point you make.

People are not always driven to crime through poverty - if they were, more than 90% of the worlds population would be criminals - criminals (generally) are driven to crime through having a criminal mentality in the first place.

That isn't what I intended to say and apologise if I gave that impression. Talking about the specifics of the immigrants in Italy, what I meant to say was that those who have turned to crime have probably done so because of the desperate situation they are in.

Sardoman: thanks for the clarification and the detailed explanation of the immigration policies/history in Italy and all over the EU. If the economy does not improve and jobs are not provided for at least the Italian citizens, then I highly doubt things are going to get better for those who immigrate to Italy from Eastern Europe and all over the developing world, in search for a better life.

On a sidenote, I hope that Britain doesn't join the EU -- only because then everything will be so much more expensive as the pound is so high and God only knows what might happen when they start using the Euro too. I spent 5 months living in London earlier this year and it was not a fun experience financially!

Anyway, here's to hoping that the situation in Italy and all the other EU countries improves... high hopes, I know... but still.

On a sidenote, I hope that Britain doesn't join the EU -- only because then everything will be so much more expensive as the pound is so high and God only knows what might happen when they start using the Euro too. I spent 5 months living in London earlier this year and it was not a fun experience financially!


Britian is split between pro and anti-Europeans, depending on who they do business with. One major factor that has stopped it from joining so far is that it has oil (although not suitable for motor vehicles), natural gas and nuclear energy.

London was recently voted by the Swiss bank UBS as the most expensive city in the world. Despite that I would live there again given the opportunity. :)

First of all Paolo...I don't think that it has been proven that the Romanian GYPSY raped and beat this woman. Second of all Gypsies are not only pocket pickers...they can be very violent. This whole situation has enraged me. As for bubbles..Romanians for example are part of the EU, so where should they be deported? It's like saying I, as an American citizen, should be deported from California to Michigan if I commit a crime. Give me a break!! I am half Italian and half Romanian and have family in both countries. It is not fair to come down on the entire Romanian nation because of several bad apples. There are over 20 violent crimes on the streets on Italy daily!! I doubt all by foreigners! Romania didn't make a big stink when Italians were going into Romania and molesting and having sex with kids & little boys!!! So should Romaninas believe that all Italians are pedophiles and mafiosos?? Italy has been using Romanians to labor the jobs Italians won't do, now all of the sudden they are no good. Overall Romanians are great, hard working people with big hearts. Criminals & crimes are in every country. The most important thing is not to forget that we are all human not dogs! and most of us are just trying to make our lives a little bit better. Italians are treating Romanians like shit ans that just puts fuel on the fire. Not to mention it shows what type of character italians have.

As for bubbles..Romanians for example are part of the EU, so where should they be deported? It's like saying I, as an American citizen, should be deported from California to Michigan if I commit a crime. Give me a break!! I am half Italian and half Romanian and have family in both countries. It is not fair to come down on the entire Romanian nation because of several bad apples..

ItalianRomanian, your rage seems not without reason. But correct me if I am wrong: Romania and Italy are two different countries, not one. They are part of the EU, which gives them a common currency and freedom of movement, but different policies and politics.


Also, if you read my earlier post again, you will find that I said that a blanket decision of treating all Romanians as criminals is wrong. So I did make exceptions for genuine, hardworking people.


Sardoman's analysis of the problem looks sound to me. Economy is a problem in both Romania and Italy. If Italy had a booming economy, Italians would not raise the issue of immigrants-----all hands, native and foreign, would be equally welcome. The same goes for Romania: it has an injured economy and so Romanians are forced to look for work in other countries like Italy, and even turn to crime when jobs are not available.

This is a case of an economic problem becoming social. At the risk of sunding preachy, I can only say that the people and politicians of both countries need to find a peaceful, logical solution before it is too late.

The following article shows how immigrants working in Italy and other EU countries are supporting their families back home.
http://www.lifeinitaly.com/news/news-detailed.asp?newsid=7330

The meeting between European Commission President José Manuel Durao Barroso and Italian Premier Romano Prodi in Rome on Monday (see http://www.lifeinitaly.com/news/news-detailed.asp?newsid=7315 ) means one of two things to me. Firstly the EU is considering changing legislation to re-instate immigration checks, or secondly the politicians are putting up smoke screen to quench public unrest. I think I know which one it might be ... :rolleyes:

And what do we do now with the Pakistanis? Or is it alright to leave them because they killed on of their own? http://www.lifeinitaly.com/news/news-detailed.asp?newsid=7337
A couple of centuries ago Britiain sent its criminals to Australia, what should Italy do with the Italian soccer hooligans?

Sorry, I don't mean to be too cynical or offend anyone. As a former policeman I know that the silent majority are law abiding and hard-working people, it's unfortunate that the press and politicians make it sound much worse than it really is, and hate to deal efficiently with the problem at hand through fear of losing popularity.

Laura
You should also post what caused the reaction: A woman who was raped and beaten near a Gypsy camp by a Romanian died last Thursday night.
I was in Italy when this happened and unfortunately it is not the first act of violence that ever happend caused by an immigrant. There are many more act of violence caused mainly by Romanian, Slavi, and Albanians as far as I know but I do not have statistics at this time but as far as I know while gypsies might pick your pocket seldom acts of extreme violence ( unlike this group of immigrants) .[B]Yes there are many acts of violence , but not all Romanians are criminals or gypsies. I am a physical therapist , my wife is a chemist , my parents are doctors, and we leave an onest life. Italians should not blame all of us for what a small group of peoples do in that country . You guys , maybe forgot that, USA invented FBI because of Italians. Maybe you forgot who and what was COSA NOSTRA ,but that does not means that all Italians are in MAFIA . Italy asked for a cheap work force and they got it.In a forest you will not find only good trees,sorry. By the way, you guys know how many italians are hiding in Romania because of the italian Police? Please forgive my broken english , but is my second language.

Actually I never meant that all Romanian are cryminals or anything like that ( Or you could also argue that all Italians are Mafia as last post said ).
I think I have read that that particolar Romanian who killed that woman was a 'problem' even back in Romania.

I think the problem is that many people come to Italy and the have no real job offer. The problem is that this brings to break the law and do criminal acts in order to survive or just for anger because of their situation. .. So while I do believe that there are some cultures that are more 'belligerant' than other cultures I believe the solution could be in admitting fewer immigrant but giving them more opportunities for an integrated life. So many people even with university degrees go doing very unprofessional jobs it is a shame. That does not happen here in the US: if you get a good university degree it does not matter where you come from.

Anyway I am no politician and I could be wrong in my point of views so any input / suggestion is welcome - Not that it would make any difference since the Italian / Rumenian government are not going to listen to us.

Ciao