The recent article is something to contemplate....

ITALIAN MUMS COMPETING WITH A MYTH
http://www.lifeinitaly.com/news/news-detailed.asp?newsid=3308

I think for Italian women it will always be very difficult to have both a career and children, because of cultural reasons more than anything. There are many women who have very fulfilling lives without ever having had children, but the view among Italian women is that this is not possible (see the article). I see this attitude as a cultural factor/peculiarity, because in other cultures this same attitude is not necessarily shared.

Italian society in general is not necessarily making it easy for women to have careers either. Italian women have far less employment and career opportunities here as compared to some other EU countries. Access to education and job training in Italy is also not so easily accessible for women (of all ages, not only young people) as it is in some northern European countries, like for example in Denmark. Here in Italy it is very unusual for a woman in her 30’s, 40’s and older to be attending university, or even retraining for a new career after having her children.
How can Italian women approach the dilemma of obtaining an education, starting a career and having children. And, is this possible?
To answer this is very difficult.
What do the women out in the audience have to say about all of this?

kfscala

Do most of the women in Italy feel that their lives are already fulfilled with the responsilities they have? I don't believe education and attending university is the only answer to a fulfilling life. One can always start a business, read on one's own, educate oneself. Family is very important -- and a mother's job is a most important one. Children are an important part of family life and an enormous responsibility and it should be so. Parents are obligated to do all they can for their children if they want them to grow up into stable, responsibile adults. Technology has freed mothers up quite a bit, so why not spend that time learning on one's own? Degrees are not everything. College is expensive, very expensive. It's a business like any other business and highly overrated. The world, regardless of the cultural aspects of one's community, offers many opportunities that one can approach without turning its famial culture upside down. As long as there are books and libraries, companies/apprenticeships, and the drive to want to do something else, there will always be those who do more than one thing. It has always been that way -- even in America, and long before the "feminist movement." Why not try some computer on-line classes?

When it comes to the role of the female in the household, the glorified "mama" is not Italian alone, a lot of Asian women have similar cultural backgrounds. And of course, mothers need to be appreciated for the job they do, they are nurturing a nation's future citizens after all, and the more they give to their children today in terms of values and physical well-being, the better it will be for the nation tomorrow. And all mothers know what a demanding job it is to be a mom.

I agree with Linda when she says that mothers can learn online and do not need to depend on colleges, but the questions run far deeper. On a mother's decision to have children or not lies an entire nation's future. One has only to see the falling number of young (or fertility rates) in some of the developed countries to realize the importance of motherhood even more, some countries today give a whole lot of extra benefits to their mothers so that more people would want to have children. In this link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4786160.stm), it is obvious that a steady economic growth and generous maternity policies encourage women to be mothers.

If you look at the national averages of fertility rates in Europe in the same link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4786160.stm), Italy is one of the lowest, at 1.33, against a required 2.1. So the 'mamma' image is not necessarily helping women have more children. The fertility rate has to be stable for a country to have enough hands for the jobs, or one would need to employ immigrants. So, there actually need to be more mothers in Italy! Here are the views of an American living in Umbria about why most Italians prefer to have only one child (http://www.knowital.com/italian/articles/italy-birthrate.html)...scroll down to the end and there seem to be some valid reasons why Italians today do not have too many children.

And this, despite some good maternity (http://www.contemporaryfamilies.org/subtemplate.php?t=pressReleases&ext=surveyfivecountries) leave policies which compare much better against those in America. So there is obviously a need to go beyond just the image of a “mama” and actually be a mama to more children:).

But a woman is as much a member of the society as a man, and to relegate her solely to child-bearing, care giving and household duties is an obvious waste of potential and an abuse of a woman's spirit. A woman has to have a career as well as being a mum, to gain self-fulfillment and respect as an intelligent and capable person, to satisfy a genuine need for independence, and sometimes purely to shoulder the financial burdens. But here, a woman needs help. She cannot alone be a champion caregiver and a great professional, she needs a partner who chips in equally on parenting responsibilities.

So, there is this other aspect that deserves some attention: where Italian mothers (or for that matter, mothers in a lot of other countries) are glorified as housewives and mothers, what is the role of the father? In a society with modern, professionally respected mothers, fathers have to share an equal part in the responsibility. A lot of a woman's dilemma between career and children also can be sorted out if the father takes an equal role in nurturing a child. Granted only mothers can become pregnant, give birth and breastfeed, but fathers can take equal part in pretty much everything else. I have seen Asian men successfully grapple with their new role-change in the family, and the image of the macho man has come to include one who can expertly change diapers. And according to me it is in choosing a responsible partner that the secret to balancing a career and motherhood lies for most women. If a man shares equally in the parenting responsibilities instead of merely paying 'lip service' to the 'mamma' concept, things should be looking up for the woman, and in fact, the entire household.


So how do the Italian men fare at helping their partners take care of their children? It would be nice to know the perspectives of both men and women on the parenting roles and how they should be divided in modern Italy.

Yes, it would be more beneficial to those women who want a career and children if the men in their lives men played a larger part in the rearing of children, helping with the housework and maybe even the care of elderly family members. Many men of course do not want to do this and expect the woman or women in the family to take on these roles. But this is because they were already socialized from a very early age, in the culture they live, to accept these traditional attitudes about women.

Of course laws could be made to atempt to change things in society. Just look at the new law in Spain. I am not certain though that this is the way to change attitudes about gendered divisions of labor. In fact I htink forcing people to change is not necessarily the way to manage the equalizing of work roles. The change has to start in educating and socializing people already at a young age about sharing the burden of domestic duties. Mature people can of course adapt too, but it takes time especially if they were raised in a culture that has very traditional roles for women. Education is I think the way to enlighten people. If they don't see how others live in other countries they will always continue to think that the way things are in their country 'is' the only way and the right way.

But I think women can have it both ways, the career and the domestic life, but ultimately it depends on a shared attitude about maintaining the family and domestic duties. And, if children see their parents already at a young age sharing domestic duties between them, they too when they are adults will hopefully take on the attitude of sharing responsibility.

Women should always be encouraged to do what they want with their lives.
If a woman is very determined, having a strong will, she can be both a good mother and have a career.

I sometimes wonder what would happen if suddenly they introduced a a law like they did in Spain here in Italy?

kfscala

I think that women do need fulfillment in their lives other than domestic life. I say this because I have spoken to many women over the years from all walks of life both American AND Italian.
And, many do say they would like something to do other than just taking care of the house and children. They love their domestic life, but want something more too. And, I speak not just for the middle class but for working class women, too. Many working class women have not had much opportunity for education here in Italy, so the only way to educate themselves is self-education. This is great as long as they are able to do so. However, many, because of their domestic duties, have no time to go out and explore libraries or book stores. They may not even have the money to buy books. Books are expensive these days. Online computer courses can be very helpful to a woman, ‘if’ she has the access to one. But many working class women do not have the access to computers, let alone have the money to buy one. The men in their families dominate the computer if there even is one. Computers are a wonderful thing, but if the woman does not have one, what can she do? In America maybe this is not the case, but here in Italy, the typical working-class woman does not have opportunties available to her as an American would. One important thing to point out here too, is that “working-class woman” in Italy has a different meaning than it does in America. The standard of living for the American working class far exceeds that of the Italian working class. For women, self-education (through various means) might be more realistic in America than it is here in Italy.

What I would really like to see more of here in Italy, and especially in my community and others in Lombardia (and elsewhere) , are women centers that could provide free education on improving reading and writing skills, learn computer technology—have access to free use of computers--and have access to books and other materials to borrow; even arts and crafts classes are a possbility. For many women in Italy the only way to get an education is through self-education. However, making self-education possible for certain women in Italian society requires the help of our local muncipalities, too. Like I said before, this could be done by building women centers.

Then there are those women who have the abililty to obtain a formal education. I always encourage women to get an education that is certified, because in the business world one needs a certificate or degree to obtain a serious job. Also, knowing several foreign languages is necessary these days to work. I would never discourage women from pursuing an educaton even if it is expensive, because in the end it does pay off. No matter what one does, one will be faced with hard work. But having a certificate or degree of education completed will make it easier for women to enter the work force. There is considerable competition and one has to be competitive. Of course, for more mature women this is more difficult and northern European countries like Denmark, for example, does offer very good opportunities for educating mature women—something I do not see in Italy. I say this because I was living and working in Denmark and also met many Italian women there! They went to Denmark to pursue an education; Technical school and University education in Denmark is free. And, for this is available for all ages. The Italian women who went to Denmark were able to get a very good education and job skills that would have been very difficult to obtain in Italy. And, not only this, but the possibilities of juggling a fufilling career and children/homelife is more realistic in Denmark than in Italy. Here in Italy I would like to see education programs and grant programs made available to both young and mature women.

Many women here in Italy do feel they need to do other things in their lives besides just doing domestic work “in order to feel fufilled”. Maybe not all Italian women want this, but those that do should be given opportunity and encouragement to pursue education whether it is self-education or being enrolled in a certificate or degree program. Ultimately, it always depend on the person’s will to pursue what they want in their life, doesn’t it?

Kfscala

Karin
Ok here I am again disagreeing with some of your points.
I want to point out that the difference between for example US and Italy is not quite as much as it would sound : I mean here is not Saudi Arabia! Lets take as an example the women around my life: my wife is American so she does not count, but my sister is a doctor (MD) , most of her friend here are doctors, architects etc. My first girlfriend Anna in the pictures with me on the motorcycle tours page is an Engineer so like most of my friends has a University degree and I must say I do know lots of women that are more successful than for example myself. Sadly enough however I do know lots of women who have no child …so in any case we need to figure out ratios etc I think we should take a look at some real data like from www.demo.istat.com
I did not research the data so far. As for the cost of University I must say that Italian University has a lot of foreign students due to its low cost. To give a comparison : I just heard that Cornell University Engineering program (where I studied for my Master in Computer science ) is now $40.000/year approximately – How much is a year at the Italian public University ?

Anyway whoever feels like here are offcial data from ISTAT ( In a pdf file )
The article is in Italian but it shows the percentage of working mothers
etc - On the istat website there are many more article but I do not want to spend a week in a research project:

http://demo.istat.it/altridati/nascite2002/Le%20neo-mamme%20non%20lavoratrici.pdf


Paolo

There are women out there, both here in Italy and in the USA who struggled to overcome financial hurdles and actually succeeded in reaching their goals. Yes, of course, here in Italy you have women medical doctors, engineers, computer scientists and lawyers etc, but they are a small minority here in Italy when compared to the rest of the EU and the U.S.A.. Italy still lags well behind the rest of the EU in terms of the number of women it has in its work force (Eurostat). Then, of course, the USA exceeds Italy in terms of the number of women in its work force (all categories of jobs).

Just because education is expensive, it does not however justify discouraging women from trying to enter technical schools and universities to study for careers. To discourage education for women is like going back into the dark ages, i.e. it is like saying it is not worth spending money on woman’s education or that women don’t need to be educated. If there are obstacles, then the way to deal with it is to find solutions, rather than to take an elimination attitude. Now I will use myself as an example. I graduated from The Ohio State University in the biosciences; I worked my way up through graduate school, found the financing and did it. It was tough and it was expensive (I was paying out-of-state tuition,too). I never regreted it and being an OSU graduate has always opened many doors for my career both in the USA and in here in Europe. A person has to have a strong will, plus a strong work ethic in order to succeed if they want to reach their goals. Period. Women cannot simply use the “too expensive” excuse. The fact that there are women who overcame financial hurdles both here in Italy and in the USA, and succeeded in doing so, means it can be done. But at the same time it does not necessarily mean that everyone can always do it. As costs continue to rise it will be more difficult to do so and solutions will have to be more innovative.

On the other hand you could also say, well the USA has very high education costs in comparison to Italy and Europe overall. Yes, that is true. One positive fact to highlight about Europe is that the costs of education are lower here in comparison to the U.S.A.. Then there are those who would assume that because tuition is lower in Europe that the quality of the education is proportionately lower as well. Lower tuition fees do not necessarily translate into lower quality education overall. There is very good education here in Italy, but it costs money. High quality university education is financially ‘accessible’ here in Europe, i.e. without having to pay high costs. For example, in Denmark and Germany, access to higher education, i.e. university education, technical school is “free”. I can vouch for this because I lived in Denmark for many years and studied there, as well as spending time in Germany. In these countries if a woman or man wants to become a doctor there are no financial hurdles to climb, only the intellectual and will-power hurdle. And, in this regard Denmark is probably the more democratic in the EU because it provides women and men with accessibility to “free” higher education as well as providing grant money for living costs (no age discrimmination). For e.g. in Denmark, ‘all’ students (citizens and legal residents), regardless of social-economic background, receive free tuition whether attending the gymnasium (‘Liceo’ as its called in Italy), or technical school, or university (up to postgraduate), AND receive a monthly stipend for the duration of their studies. Foreigners who temporarily study in Denmark also get free tuition, but don’t receive stipends. This is a fact. If some EU countries like Denmark and Germany can provide free education to their ‘citizens’ and ‘legal residents’ , then why can’t Italy do it as well? Why can’t the USA? The profession of nursing would be a good point to highlight here. In many EU countries nurse education and training is provided for free and even a salary is paid while in training !

There are of course many complexities attached to what I have written above, and the answers are never so easy to find. Still, one has to wonder ‘why’ some countries are able to offer more progressive education policies and others just don’t.

copyright (c) 2006 Karin S. Fester Scala
7 November 2006

Weighing in on this issue... I have not looked at the stats, nor have I done extensive research on education in various countries. All I have to go on is my own experience which includes (among other things) working my way through to a Master's degree, and observing the women I've met in my travels.

I have traveled through Italy a bit - not extensively, although I have stayed in a number of cities for periods of time ranging from a week to a month.

My views about Italian women and working is that they seem to be just as educated, just as motivated, just as interested... just as able... as any American woman I've met.

Again, my experiences and travels may have put me in touch with the elite, so my point of view might be skewed... but I don't think so. I have seen across a broad spectrum of women and their jobs - from maids in hotels to compute programmers in companies, from shop-keepers to shop owners,from secretaries to doctors and lawyers and so on. They seem to be making the same choices American women make, and moving into the world in whatever way they decide to.

Before reading this thread it wouldn't have occured to me to wonder whether women in Italy had the same opportunities I have... it seems to me to be quite similar.

Family and social values could be both a hindrance and a blessing, in both countries. And it seems to me that a woman who wants an education, in either place, can get one. And she can get a job in the profession of her choice, and she can have a family. The choice seems, as it should be, to be hers.

Teresa